FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 11 Aug 2000 to 12 Aug 2000 (#2000-246)

Sat, 12 Aug 2000

There are 17 messages totalling 622 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Urs' Eyes
  2. Interesting bit of trivia... (4)
  3. Looking for Valideh
  4. I have a question... (4)
  5. Mind powers, was:  I have a question...
  6. Mind powers 2, was:  I have a question...
  7. Ques--Miklos a Vamp & Vachon on Holy Ground (2)
  8. Question--Urs' Eyes
  9. My, Y'all have been busy!
 10. Ben Bass on right now

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Date:    Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:01:13 -0700
From:    Liz the Lucky <luckyliz@m.......>
Subject: Urs' Eyes

Provided that they're the same color as Kristen Lehman's eyes ;-), they're
blue.

Hugs and Kisses,
Liz the Lucky                                               FoD
luckyliz@m.......                                     Merc
http://www.mindspring.com/~luckyliz                         Nothers

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:13:29 EDT
From:    Ceily Trog <Fk4ever1228@a.......>
Subject: Re: Interesting bit of trivia...

In a message dated 8/8/00 8:26:26 AM Central Daylight Time,
nancykam@m....... writes:

<< FWIW, LaCroix water is bottled, I believe, in Wisconsin, and is very
common here in Minnesota. However, it's pronounced "Lacroy" -- we're not too
good at pronouncing French here in the Land of Lakes. >>

LOL  Apparently we aren't too good about French pronunciations here either --
we have a community called Delacroix that is pronounced "Delacrow."  Certain
very common vegetable pears grown here are pronounced "millytauns" -- the
spelling is merlitons.  In nearby New Orleans, you should hear how the
streets named after the Muses are pronounced!

Someone may have mentioned this, I am very far behind on my mail, but when
Nick was a rookie cop in Chicago, LC said  "LaCroy, Internal Affairs" when
Nick's partner was shot.

fk4ever

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:28:59 -0000
From:    Barbara Vainio <bevainio@w.......>
Subject: Looking for Valideh

Sorry to waste bandwidth, but I just tried sending a message to Valideh that
bounced.  Just want to be sure I have the right address (& that she's OK)

Barb

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:39:43 -0500
From:    Cindy Ingram <cgi271@a.......>
Subject: Re: I have a question...

I'm on digest, so this may have already been mentioned ...

"Not Portia" <g> wrote:

>So, we've been told the writer conceived of Miklos as a vampire -- so, why
>no flinching, no reaction to Liam's testing?  Maybe 'cause he
>has...um...<ba**s of >steel??>

If I recall correctly from previous list discussions on the topic, Gillian
Horvath created the Miklos character (first seen in the ep "A Fate Worse
Than Death") and intended him to be a vampire.

But when the character appeared in "Bad Blood" (the only other ep he was
in), the writer of that script didn't know he was supposed to be a vamp and
wrote him as a mortal.

Sooo, pick whichever answer you like best, and no one can really say you're
wrong. <g>

Someone (so sorry, forgot who it was) mentioned the possibility that Miklos
might have been a close mortal friend of Janette's. If so, that would be an
interesting turn of events, considering she's lectured him more than once
on the folly of getting close to mortals.

Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, eh? <weg>

Cindy Ingram
<cgi271@a.......>

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people
very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 05:51:09 +0200
From:    Llarian <manulanger@t.......>
Subject: Mind powers, was:  I have a question...

From: <Libratsie@a.......>
Then, out of curiousity, how do you explain them reacting to religious
objects they DON'T know are religious. Such as the knives in ... shoot, my
mind just drew a blank but I think it is called "BLACKWING"? As I recall,
Nick did not realize they were ceremonial and apparenty religious?

Nick may have encountered raven knifes before and may have known about them,
just not consciously remembering their significance at the moment. However,
his subconscious mind remembered, and... zap!

It's also possible that his cover story ("static electricity") was truer
than he thought. :)

Llarian
mailto:manulanger@t.......
http://www.llarian.de

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 05:59:43 +0200
From:    Llarian <manulanger@t.......>
Subject: Mind powers 2, was:  I have a question...

From: Emily Hanson <hansone@t.......>
Although I'm not sure flying is a psychic ability,
though it could be an extension of telekinesis.  I've never seen any eps
where they use telekinesis for anything other than flying

I'm not sure... I seem to remember in the episode Bad Blood that
the lock on the door behind which Jack the ripper was lurking moved
on it's own... but I might be mistaken.

I do think,  however, that the flying is a form of telekinesis, but one
that doesn't need much "fine-tuning". It does need a lot of strength,
though - our vampires lift more than their own weight with it!
In comparison, trying to move a small objekt around with your mind,
would be like trying to  light only one particular candle on a
birthday cake using a flamethrower. Does that make sense?

Anyway, under these circumstances, most vampires won't bother
to use telekinesis for anything else than flying. Unless their professional
lock picks. :)

Llarian
mailto:manulanger@t.......
http://www.llarian.de

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:10:59 EDT
From:    Doņa Angel <donaangel@h.......>
Subject: Re: Ques--Miklos a Vamp & Vachon on Holy Ground

Re--Is Miklos a Vampire....
and Vachon Living in a deCONsecrated church...

dharris@h....... wrote:
<< I don't think this has ever been confirmed or denied...  Although, Miklos
  did not have a reaction to the cross in Bad Blood when Liam O'Neal stuck
it in his face, in a kinda unfriendly like way. >>

And From: Scottie @sss44@a.......
>Gillian Horvath, the scriptwriter for this and several other eps, says he
>*is* a vampire.

WOW! THANKS, Scottie for telling us that-- I had asked on another FK list if
Miklos was considered in FK FanFic to be vampire or mortal, as it was not
clear {to me} from the show, and am grateful to you for posting this info!
-- BTW, was Gillian Horvath the one who created the character of Miklos?

Well, let me give this a try--
#1--when Inspector Liam O'Neal is in the Raven---
I think that, even though he can detect vampires, due to his having been
attacked by one as a child, but, as Janette said, he had not tasted enough
vampire blood to have become a vampire, which resulted in his being able to
have some sense of the presence of a vampire, but obviously not as strong a
sense as a vampire would of the presence of another vamp--Liam, for example,
does not 'sense' that Nick is a vampire, right, he MAY have SOME idea, but
seems as if he's using his detective skills plus personal knowledge of
vampires when he deduces that Nick is a vamp, when he's in the Raven, he
DOES sense that there are vampires there, but my idea is that there are SO
many vamps there, maybe the presence of so many in one place at the same
time sort of 'overloads' his senses and/or he cannot "zero in on" who is a
vamp, so he figures that the waitress is a vamp. Now, if she was, she would,
IMHO, know that a cross is NOT something a vamp would want to be in close
contact with {{{Basic Newborn Vamps 101 training I'd think from an even
barely decent Vampire to his or her Offspring}}} --but she has NO idea about
why this guy has shoved a cross in her face; whereas, Janette, a vamp, knows
why.(Nick even taught Nat's brother that crosses were not 'good' for him
after he brought him across in IWR and when Richard was alone in Nick's
loft, when he saw the St. Joan's cross in the box, he got away from
it.--Maybe it bothered him when he saw it or was so near it.--but during
their fight, Richard PURPOSEFULLY shoved Niock's face into St. Joan's
creoss, didn't he?)

#2--when Miklos comes to assist the waitress, while the cross doesn't burn
him--[unless it's a delayed reaction in some cases and burns him a few
seconds later & we don't get to see it *g*]--I would not say that it has no
effect on him at all-- if you recall the expression on Miklos' face-- he's
sort of seems a bit distressed-- MORE I'd think than just by the obvious
fact that he's trying to extricate a customer who is bothering one of the
waitresses, and said customer is a smaller, less strong man than Miklos
himself is, so the normally calm, tall, stronger Miklos, I assume, would not
have reason to have such an expression of anger --or whatever-- on his face.

#3--a cross is a weapon anginst vampires-- in vampire folklore and in
FOREVER KNIGHT-- as such it does cause discomfort, and maybe even pain or
burns to a vampire-- in "Can't Run, Can't Hide", both Nick and Tran are
holding a cross, and Tran {and I don't remember if Nick says it too} says
something about "enduring the pain of the cross"-- remember in the beginning
of season 2, "Killer Instinct" ep when Nick and LaCroix are fighting, and
Nick holds 2 pieces of wood together in the shape of a cross and LC is then
UNABLE to get to Nick and even leaves that room-- so Nick was at least able
to hold the makeshift cross and it obviously caused LC a GREAT deal of
DISCOMFORT just being near it--and presuming that LC, at in his mortal life
had not been a Christian, but had been a pagan, the holy symbol DID effect
him anyway-- {{{I do appreciate very much that FK kept with the basic
traditional beliefs regarding vampires, unlike some of the modern "Vampire
literature" and movies}}} A cross is traditionally considered a powerful
weapon against vampires; a crucfix --which has a representation of Christ on
it-- is more powerful than a "plain" cross; and a rosary is even more
powerful--as it has a cross or crucifix plus the string of beads-- if they
are wooden and if preferably made out of wood from trees with anti-vampiric
properities (such as ash or maple), in addition to "the spiritual power of
the rosary being spread throughout the beads, each representing a sacred
prayer. The spiritual protection is thus more complete and more difficult
for the vampire to penetrate." [pg.226,"The Vampire Encyclopedia", Matthew
Bunson, copyright 1993]

#4--this is regarding why Miklos may not have been as seriously negatively
effected by the cross touching his forehead and also why Vachon is able to
live in a deconsecrated church--
.....NOT ALL vampires are evil and-- maybe there are {IMHO} the effect of
the holy objects and places is realted to the varying amount of goodness and
evil in the particular vampire. In season 1 FIHS, Nick in the "present" can
be in a church but suffers some degree of discomfort; in the flashback, he
couldn't even touch the cross-- remember the flames as his hand got close or
even touched it?! In the "present", in IWR, St. Joan's cross does burn his
face when he and Nat's newborn vamp brother Richard are fighting. Nick DOES
visit Vachon's church, as does the Inca, with apparently no ill effects, but
we never see LC there, and in a season 2 ep when LC drains the young nun,
he's not seen in the church, but in the convent cellar-- he could have just
grabbed her in the convent, and not needed to go into the church after her.

***You see, even in some vampire traditions-- not only in FK *bVaqG*-- there
are GOOD vampires-- "Stregoni Benefici", according to "The Vampire
Encyclopedia" by Matthew Bunson, copyright 1993, pg. 247, is an Italian name
meaning "beneficial vampire" and "indicates a belief that there were certain
undead who were on the side of goodness." This term is "an Italian variation
on the Istrian (Dalmatian) name for the 'kresnik', the good vampire or
mortal enemy of the evil 'kudlak."
***In some beliefs about vampires, not all are evil or are demons--
a Kresnik (a Dalmatin/maybe Serbian type word) is a GOOD vamp and one of the
things they do is protect the innocent and I think have the role like a
shaman in protecting a town-- and the word Kresnik is from the word 'cross'
and the Kresnik is God's representative. It was believed that every town had
a Kresnik and a Kudlak-- the Kudlak being an evil vamp and being the mortal
enemy of the Kresnik-- they would battle each other, and the Kresnik would
always win, as the forces of good, God's side, would never be overcome by
the [forces of] darkness.-- IMHO--Javier Vachon, his "brother", The Inca,
and their master Angel are "good" vamps-- by "birth"-- "to stop the
senseless killing" and "those that value life should live" sound like good
things-- pretty close to 'protecting the innocent'.  Not only did Javier
Vachon save Urs from the guy who was intending to kill he, and -- for
whatever reason-- EVEN though Urs wanted Vachon to kill he, he said he COULD
NOT!-- maybe because he's a good person, and a good vampire, or he wated her
with him , or because of her being good and kind and gentle?! Vachon and
Nick have also saved Tracy, and Nick has saved Schankee, Nat, and other
mortals. And Javier and The Inca, and with Nick and Screed's help when Nick,
Screed, and The Inca collected Vudu's bombs that were in the sewers under
TO, DID save innocent people, as has Nick on numerous occasions. Nick is a
good vamp now--by choice.
----so, I figure Javier could live in a 'former church' without much
difficulity-- ya'll never see LaCroix in Vachon's Church or ANY church, the
closest thing was when LC took Nick to the exocist in 'Sons of Beliel'-- and
keep in mind how very difficult it was for Nick to be in the Church in
FIHS-- Nick's one of the 'good' vamps now, but even at 700+ years, he did
have a problem with the church and some of the holy things there --and not
only because it WAS daytime and not only because he may have been hungry--
but he DID do much better in GVP!

Lorelei Sieja <lorisieja@h.......> wrote:
>Some have commented on Vachon's ability to live in an abandoned church was
>that it had been desecrated...

And Dorothy Spirito <spiritod@t.......> wrote:
>That's "deCONsecrated".That means that it was ritually turned back into a
>plain-old-building -- stripped of its holy-ness -- as part of the
>moving-out process.

***MANY THANKS, Dorothy, for clarifing and explaining this to us! *bVaqG* I
appreciate your kindness in sharing this info!

OH, I'd also like to mention something that McLisa mentioned here some
months back-- that Miklos is Hungarian for Nicholas-- I don't recall if she
said that Gillian Horvath said that-- which, considering that even the word
'vampire' is from a Hungarian [Magyar] word, and that Transylavania
sometimes was part of Hungary, and one of the most famous "Draculas" was
Bela Lugosi-- a Hungarian --makes sense to me! :) I know sometimes in fic,
Miklos has been referred to as Greek, and I read a tiny bit of one where he
was referred to as 'Romy' [sorry if spelled wrong!]-- which is what the
Gyspy people call themselves-- but while there are Hungarian Gypsies,
Gypsies who may have been born in or lived in Hungary, not all Hungarians
are Gypsies. I believe the Hungarian People are Magyars [sorry if spelled
wrong!]... Of course, this is of importance to me -- being of mixed
Hungarian, English, German, and American Indian descent! And not all
Hungariarns are blond haired and fair skinned like the famous Hungarians--
Zsa Zsa and Eva Gabor, but rather [some] have dark hair and dark eyes like
Miklos-- so my dad recently told me-- some of my Hungarian and part
hungarian relatives have very dark brown eyes, dark hair, and dark
olive-complexion like "Miklos".

Angel a.k.a. Doņa Angel
Vaquera/Willing Slave of THE Glorious Spaniard/Future Proud Vaq
Brat/VaqDreamer/INCArnate
Check out BBFC Web site: http://www.benbassfanclub.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:29:33 EDT
From:    Sss44@a.......
Subject: Re: Ques--Miklos a Vamp & Vachon on Holy Ground

In a message dated 8/11/00 9:18:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
donaangel@h....... writes:

<< Miklos was considered in FK FanFic to be vampire or mortal, as it was not
 clear {to me} from the show, and am grateful to you for posting this info!
 -- BTW, was Gillian Horvath the one who created the character of Miklos?
  >>

Yes, she was. Several Forkni-l-ers had a t-shirt made up for her at DOW 2
that said "Miklos' Mom"--apparently she was thrilled with it. :-)

Scottie
sss44@a.......
"Oh, I want him." -- Janette, Near Death

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:20:52 EDT
From:    Doņa Angel <donaangel@h.......>
Subject: Re: Question--Urs' Eyes

From:  Amand-r <deparsons@e.......>
>...what color are Urs's eyes? I can't tell from the screen captures, >but I
>think they're brown. I don't want to get it wrong...

There is a beautiful and GREAT web site "The Urs FAQ" by Amy R. at
<http://users.lanminds.com/~akr/fk/faq/urs.html>
The eyes of the beautiful, kind, gentle vampiress in Javier Vachon's unlife
are described here as "pale green".
--But I personally don't know-- maybe some with excellent tapes or vid-caps
can check-- because when Kristin Lehman, who played Urs, was a member of the
cast for season 3 of 'Poltergeist: The Legacy', and Ms. Lehman's eyes
definitely LOOKED blue-- but I guess there's the possibility that she could
have worn contacts, but in 'Poltergeist', they were BLUE. Don't know what
color they were in other shows she's been in, 'Kung Fu: The Legend
Continues' and the short lived ABC series 'Strange World', and an ep of 'The
X-Files' "Kill Switch", [in which you may not even guess the super computer
genius 'Esther' character was she!] and she was even in an ep the Canadian
series "Once a Thief" in which I understand Greg Kramer a.k.a. Screed, is a
regular-- maybe folks who have seen the ep Kristen was in might recall.

There is also a WONDERFUL web site "Urchin Sympathizers" at
<http://forever.vachon.net/urs/>
---here you will also be able to find out about what other series, etc,
Kristin has done and is doing.

In case you did not know, The Urchin Sympathizers, a.k.a. Urchins, are
followers of or friends of Urs. And those who believe in Urs and Javier
Vachon TOGETHER are Dark Hearts. I don't know if the Urchins have a list,
but I do know that there is a "Dark Hearts List" at
e-Groups/ONEList and there is also some beautiful-- [but not nearly enough!]
Dark Hearts fiction-- you can find it via the "Urchin Sympathizers" addy
above. There is also "The Crew List" at
e-Groups/ONEList, The Crew referring to Javier Vachon, Urs, Screed, and
Bourbon-- from BB2 references to 'Vachon's Crew'.

IIRC, Nick, Janette, and LaCroix all have blue eyes; Miklos, Javier Vachon
and his vampire brother, The Inca, have brown eyes. If anyone can determine
what color Urs' eyes are, PLEASE let us know, as I have a story in progress,
and Urs is in it, and I have her eyes as BLUE {{{...and they're looking into
someone's brown eyes...}}} but like Amand-r, I want to get it right!
Thanks!

Angel a.k.a. Doņa Angel
Vaquera/Willing Slave of THE Glorious Spaniard/Future Proud Vaq
Brat/VaqDreamer/INCArnate/with Immortal Beloveds, Ravenette,Urchin &
DarkHearts Tendencies

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:56:17 EDT
From:    KnghtWtch@a.......
Subject: Re: I have a question...

Thanks all...for your help.  I've decided to go with Miklos as a vampire
since his first appearance in the show was written in as a vamp by the
writers.  First come...first serve.

KnightWitch ;-]=

CaddyWhacker, Die Hard, Ravenette, Enforcement's.
GWDFC,FKFC.  I-con 17, Bridging, Nexus 98, LCA2, G5 attendee.
"Come... and sleep the day with me." Janette, Crazy Love
Proud owner of the www. Forever Knight.cc domain.
Coming soon and complete and unique line of Forever Knight related tee shirts
and golf/sports shirts.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 04:36:06 EDT
From:    Laudon1965@a.......
Subject: My, Y'all have been busy!

I leave y'all alone for a few days and you positively run off at the
keyboard. <g>  So much listmail!  My hard drive died a couple of days ago.
I've been predicting it for a several of months now, but my warnings fell on
deaf ears.  We lost quite a bit of data, because the other day the drive
developed multitudinous bad clusters in the first few sectors.  That's what
finally crashed the drive.  My only consolation for having been Cassandra of
the hard drive is that most of *my* data was either salvagable or backed up.
<weg>

But I'm back now. :)  It may take me a couple of days to slog through my mail
and catch up, but I'm back.  I missed you guys.

{{{{{{all}}}}}}
Laurie of the Isles

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 04:36:11 EDT
From:    Laudon1965@a.......
Subject: Re: Interesting bit of trivia...

In a message dated 8/8/00 3:12:12 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
agottfre@t....... writes:

<< France
 experienced a very sissified shift in pronunciation. "Oi", which had been
 pronounced "oy", became "wa" (that's right, "moi" used to be pronounced
 "moy"), the "ot" ending, which had been pronunced "oat", became "oh", etc. >>

This brings up a interesting issue.  It is very difficult for an adult to
change his or her pronunciation and usage after a having grown up hearing his
or her language a certain way.  Would this have been a problem for Nick,
LaCroix and Janette, as French and English changed?  Would they simple have
been able to "roll with the changes"?  Or would the fact that they can
assimilate knowledge through feeding been what enabled them to keep up with
the changes in language?

Laurie of the Isles

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:19:23 EDT
From:    Ceily Trog <Fk4ever1228@a.......>
Subject: Re: I have a question...

In a message dated 8/11/00 3:13:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
manulanger@t....... writes:

<< I think the writers either couldn't make up their mind about the subject,
or left it open to the audience to decide for themselves. Vachon's church may
be abandoned, but there are still statues and crosses around in it.>>

Perhaps the reason Vachon chose to take up residence in a church was because
he was hiding from other vampires; the Incan in particular.  It was said that
he had a particular talent for avoiding other vampires when he wanted; could
his tolerance of crosses and stuff in the deconsecrated church be part of
this talent?  Or am I getting fanfic ideas confused in this?

<< In Black Buddha I, in the scene where Tracy comes looking for Vachon, you
can see a large cross in the foreground. So, the church is not completely
stripped of all holy objects. >>

Now this brings up another question: if the religious icons are not "blessed"
does that make a difference?  If a church has been deconsecrated, I'm sure
that would extend to all the objects within.  I know that two pieces of wood
crossed have repulsed some vamps on FK, but doesn't it have to do with the
faith of the individual?  Thus, Joan of Arc's crude wooden cross would be
more powerful not only because it was "blessed", but also because of her
faith?

fk4ever
(still trying to catch up)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:42:09 -0400
From:    Emily Hanson <hansone@t.......>
Subject: Re: Interesting bit of trivia...

-snip-

Would this have been a problem for Nick, LaCroix and Janette, as French and
English changed?

Laurie of the Isles

No, I don't think so.  Shifts in pronounciation and slang change over time,
or when new technology is invented or some influential person coins a
phrase.  Think of how many words have been added to the dictionary because
of computers and the Internet.  The same thing would have happened with the
printing press, electricity and automobiles.  And the vamps could easily get
the knowledge from someone's blood, donated or not.

They can choose whether or not to pick up slang and technological terms.
Nick does a pretty good job of that (I recall his frequently-used phrase
"what gives?") Maybe because he wants to be more human.  We don't see
Janette and LC using lots of slang, probably because they don't care for it.


Just MHO.

Emily M. Hanson
http://www.starbase-eprime.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:36:50 -0500
From:    "Carla M." <copper6500@y.......>
Subject: Ben Bass on right now

First Wave... SciFi channel... for the next half-hour.

-Carla

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Aug 2000 12:54:42 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Interesting bit of trivia...

In a message dated 8/12/00 10:45:41 AM Central Daylight Time,
hansone@t....... writes:

>  We don't see
>  Janette and LC using lots of slang, probably because they don't care for it.
>
And then there is Screed. He not only USES slang, he invents it on his own.

Screed may not be the highest form of vampire, but, by golly, I'd like to see
anyone TRY to outslang him! (Not to mention just understand him!)

hehehe

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Aug 1980 14:36:42 -0600
From:    Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: I have a question...

>I don't remember which ep we first meet Miklos in... anyone?

I'm pretty sure Miklos first showed up in A Fate Worse Than Death. After
Bad Blood, I was firmly convinced that he was a mortal who was fully in
Janette's confidence, which explains why he was so keen to throw Insp.
O'Neal out of the club.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Ligeia

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 11 Aug 2000 to 12 Aug 2000 (#2000-246)
***************************************************************