FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 15 Jan 2005 to 16 Jan 2005 (#2005-16)

Sun, 16 Jan 2005

There are 18 messages totalling 618 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. published authors <g> (2)
  2. Need More Info Please!
  3. Writing in English (12)
  4. FK moment (2)
  5. Admin: Forkni-l Rules

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Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:58:44 -0800
From:    Laura Davies <brightfeather1.geo@y.......>
Subject: published authors <g>

Give it a few months.  According the the editor, at
least one of my short stories will be published in the
Spring edition of the GSU review!  <bg>  Now if I can
just manage to get into a higher-rung literary
magazine...

Shadow

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:25:25 -0800
From:    Emily <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: Re: published authors <g>

Congrats!

I have had a few poems and one short SF story published in the small
press, but that's all so far.

--- Laura Davies <brightfeather1.geo@y.......> wrote:

> Give it a few months.  According the the editor, at
> least one of my short stories will be published in the
> Spring edition of the GSU review!

=====
Emily M. Hanson
emilymhanson@y.......
http://www.starbase-eprime.us

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:52:32 -0800
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: Re: Need More Info Please!

I know I was reading through the archives a couple of
weeks ago and ended up looking up Jayel Wylie who is
now a professional author.
http://www.likesbooks.com/colleen70.html

Gwenn Musicante has a book out, Susan Garrett has one
of the "official" FK sanctioned books out.

If you would like, I'd be happy to research this for
you, as a way of saying thank you for all the hard
work you did on my edits :)

(Part of my RL job includes just this type of research
and I am very good at it and enjoy it.)

--- Deborah Hymon <debh@e.......> wrote:

> I'm preparing for the radio talk show, and I need
> to know the names of FK
> fan fiction writers who later became published
> authors.  Did anyone publish
> a romance novel?  Can anyone help me with this?
>
> Thanks,
> Deborah
>
> DeborahAHymon.com
>


=====
Kristen Fife
http://www.fkvoyage.com/fkfanfic/fife_kristen/
"When a half-breed vampire becomes the object of Mafia revenge, the ensuing
power struggle pits immortal and mortal families against one another." -THICKER
THAN WATER
"The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:40:25 -0800
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: Writing in English

I know we have a lot of international list members,
and English isn't their first language, or North
American English isn't, and I thought I'd see how many
people, when writing (and reading), believe dialogue
is more believable when using idiomatic tools. For
example, Americans and Canadians tend to use a lot of
contractions in dialogue (I'm American, my SO and his
family are from Ontario ;) The most common are: I'm
(for I am), s/he's (s/he is), they're (they are) I've,
they've, you've (I have, they have, you have-mostly
for past tense as opposed to showing possession),
you're (for you are), and can't (for cannot).

I've been helping someone I know with dialogue for
screenplay, and this is something I wanted to run by
the list for feedback. We're a lazy bunch in N America
;)


=====
Kristen Fife
http://www.fkvoyage.com/fkfanfic/fife_kristen/
"When a half-breed vampire becomes the object of Mafia revenge, the ensuing
power struggle pits immortal and mortal families against one another." -THICKER
THAN WATER
"The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:19:30 -0600
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@c.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

> Kristen Fife wrote:

> American English isn't, and I thought I'd see how many
> people, when writing (and reading), believe dialogue
> is more believable when using idiomatic tools.

The use of contractions in dialog is the norm in fiction writing.
People routinely use contractions in their day-to-day communication;
if you read a story in which contractions are not used, the sentences
sound very stilted and artificial. It works in very rare
occasions---the first example I think of are Damon Runyon's wonderful
stories, written in the early 1900s. His stilted use of language lends
atmosphere to the stories in a way that is difficult to describe. (If
you ever saw the movie "Guys and Dolls" you would know what I
mean---the movie dialog was written to mirror his very unique way with
words.

For example, here's an extract from the story, "Broadway Complex":

"However, the citizens who are present in the morning I am speaking of
do not pay much attention to Cecil Earl when he comes in, as he is
nothing but a tall, skinny young guy, with slick black hair, such as
you are apt to see anywhere along Broadway at any time, especially
standing in front of theatrical booking offices. In fact, to look at
Cecil you will bet he is maybe a saxophone player, as there is
something about him that makes you think of a saxophone player right
away and, to tell the truth, Cecil can tootle a pretty fair sax, at
that, if the play happens to come up."

If a person was speaking these words in normal conversation the
sentences would be peppered with contractions.

It is true that non-English speakers have difficulty understanding
written contractions. I'm a technical writer---if I'm writing a book
that will be translated for use overseas (right now the books I'm
writing get translated into French, German, Italian, Spanish, Chinese,
Korean, and Japanese) I absolutely can't use contractions or phrases
that refer only to American culture, for example, you can't write that
something is "in the ballpark". That has no meaning for someone who is
not familiar with baseball.

Botom line: use the contractions. It's weird if you don't. Unless
you're Damon Runyon. <g>

Nancy Kaminski

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:53:11 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Writing in English

In a message dated 1/15/05 8:41:52 PM Central Standard Time,
fenix23fyre@y....... writes:


> I've been helping someone I know with dialogue for
> screenplay, and this is something I wanted to run by
> the list for feedback. We're a lazy bunch in N America

I agree with Nancy, if you don't use contractions, the dialogue will NOT be
real and, especially in a screenplay, it is going to bomb in the believability
category.

To get this on topic, contractions should also be used in fiction unless you
are avoiding it for a character or a specific reason relating to the
characterization or the story. However, "accents" are a little harder to read
than to hear in something like a film. A good writer will be able to capture
the flavor of the accent through local terms and diction, with just a hint of
the accent... Unless you are writing Screed Speak. LOL! I do tend to go all out
with it, I admit, which makes it hard for non-native English speakers and many
native English speakers to read.

Still, it is a heck of a lot of fun for me tew jammy jam h'in the droog's
manner o' dick-ta-tion.

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 08:28:17 -0500
From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

At 12:53 AM 1/16/2005, Libs wrote:

>However, "accents" are a little harder to read than to hear in something
>like a film. A good writer will be able to capture the flavor of the
>accent through local terms and diction, with just a hint of the accent...

Emphasize here, *GOOD* writer. I've unfortunately run into
professionally-published fiction (based on a television series, not FK)
where the accent of a character with a heavy "Scots" accent on TV was
written in (what sounded like) a *Jamaican* accent (completely different
pronunciation and intonation) with a few words of Scots thrown in. Totally
ruined the book for me...

I think I'd run into the same problem reading or writing the phonetics of
certain US "accents" the way people actually *sound*, since it would come
off in writing as if those speakers had a severe speech impediment ("De
dentis' say sumfin' bout toof decay") or was uneducated (I've heard reactor
physicists talk about "newkewlar energy" and Ph.D.s "aks a question")...
Sometimes, the writer just has to expose the character and let the reader
will make the necessary adjustments to that character's speech patterns on
his/her own...



Brenda F. Bell   webwarren@e.......   /nick TMana     IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
         UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos:  https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:07:13 -0700
From:    Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

> Bottom line: use the contractions. It's weird if you don't. Unless
> you're Damon Runyon. <g>

What she said. Oops, I meant to say "I agree completely with Nancy".

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 06:14:57 -0800
From:    Karen Reincke <kaylagaylestories@y.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

I agree, but it depends on the story as well.

As an example, I am writing a story that is set in sort of Tudor times.  I
cannot use contractions for they did not use contractions for their speech.
However, to use thee and thy would be very difficult for the modern reader (think
of the Bible--King James version).  To do it well takes talent.  See The Prince
and The Pauper by Mark Twain for an example of it very well done and able for the
modern audience to read.  I am not Mark Twain.

As for dialogue, this has been a bugbear with me.  However I read one time
where it is easier to write normally and then say they are speaking in that
accent.  After all, having Janette and Nick speak an entire story in French
would not be very useful to English readers.  But having the author say that
they are speaking in French is something else entirely.

I agree that you have to be careful with slang as well.  For my Reno Vamp
series, I am writing a backstory to my main character.  He was brought up on the
Lower East Side of NYC in the mid to late 1800's.  If I mention that Cary was
bitten by a vampire, the denizens of that part of the city would not think
Dracula.  Rather back then a vampire was a man who blackmailed others who came
out of brothels.  So you have to be real careful about sayings and slang.

Cars for instance in England have a bonnet where our hood is and they eat
biscuits instead of cookies.  If you would say someone enjoyed biscuits and gravy
for breakfast, someone English would probaly look sideways at you.

Truthfully, this is one of the problems with my writing is that I try to get
these esoteric details right.

If you wish to truly write for a multi-national audience, have a beta reader or
someone who writes and knows the language read it for you.

Just my 2 cents.

Karen aka Kayla Gayle

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:34:28 -0800
From:    Emily <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: FK moment

While reading the news online, I came across a story about rats being
used to clear out landmines in Africa.  How could I not think about
FK?  ;)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/01/15/rat.land.mines.reut/index.html

=====
Emily M. Hanson
emilymhanson@y.......
http://www.starbase-eprime.us

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:58:25 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Admin: Forkni-l Rules

For many of us in the United States, tomorrow is Martin Luther King Day and a
holiday.  That includes me, and I wish us a safe and happy holiday. Everyone
else have a good Monday!  Play nice, now, on and offlist. :) -- McLisa


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------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:12:47 +0100
From:    CousinLucilla <cousinlucilla@f.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

Karen Reincke wrote:

>Truthfully, this is one of the problems with my writing is that I try to get
these esoteric details right.

Well, a lot of the FK screenplay writers didn't pay much attention to
these details either - or how would you explain all the US specific
lingo in the dialogues?
Example: "to take the fifth" is clearly a reference to the US
constitution.,and -to quote CD in one of the dailies- "We don't have a
fifth in Canada!".

Now to the topic of writing in a foreign language:
I think in writing we tend to take a lot of concepts for granted and
aren't aware that some idiomatic terms might mean nothing to others
("ballpark figure" just one of them).
I know that from my own experience of writing in this fandom (and this
is the only fandom I'm writing for) . English is the only language I'm
writing in, although it's not my mother tongue.
Idiomacy can only be acquired by reading lots and lots of stuff and
listening and talking as much as possible (by the way, this goes for
everyone, even native speakers).. Thankfully in the age of modern media
and Internet access this has gotten much easier and I., as a teacher of
English as a foreign language, am deeply grateful for that..

Most of the problems can be worked out with the help of a good beta
reader, or even several of them.And actually (now I'm inviting the
flames - I know, but I'll say it anyway)
I have read a lot of fan fiction, including this fandom, written by
natives that made me literally cringe in pain, because no one seems to
have taught them about spelling or grammar.
Therefore: a good beta reader is a thing to be treasured.

My two euro cents' worth of dribble,

Doris


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:27:12 +0100
From:    CousinLucilla <cousinlucilla@f.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

Geez, where did all those extra periods in my last post come from? Could
I have a beta reader for my e-mail, please?



------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:26:54 +0200
From:    Lucia Nicolau <lnicolau@p.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

Speaking from the perspective of a non-native reader of English&American
literature>

It never even occurred to me not to use contractions in what I write in
English (admittedly, scientific stuff). It's not really about dialogue being
more believable with contractions, it's rather about it being completely
artificial without them. Looking at he list you presented, the one I use
least is I've/ you've/they've.  But even that would be ok if the persons
speaking had a certain social background.

I'd like to add though, that the cautionary remarks made earlier about
overusing idiomatic tools are "right on" :P Whatever you do, don't overdo
it. It doesn't have to be Salinger's Catcher in the Rye. :P

 Lucie

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:41:14 +0100
From:    CousinLucilla <cousinlucilla@f.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

Lucia Nicolau (you just gotta love that name  :-P ) wrote:

>I'd like to add though, that the cautionary remarks made earlier about
>overusing idiomatic tools are "right on" :P Whatever you do, don't overdo
>it. It doesn't have to be Salinger's Catcher in the Rye. :P
>
>
Well spoken. It depends on the atmosphere and the character you wish to
create, and too much can be just as bad as too little.
And regarding the 'accent thing': doing it wrong is worse than not doing
it at all.


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:53:51 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Writing in English

In a message dated 1/16/05 10:43:52 AM Central Standard Time,
cousinlucilla@f....... writes:


> And regarding the 'accent thing': doing it wrong is worse than not doing
> it at all.
>

That's true. And even in writing fanfic where you decide not to write in
dialect, you need to make the character real by using terms of the intended
area, or at least avoiding words not used in the intended area.

This would actually be something the FK vampires would learn as they
recreated their lives each time they "moved on." Nick, when posing as being from
Scotland would not say, "WHy don't y'all come over after the shift ends." If he
were posing as being from Arkansas, he most likely wouldn't say, "Why don't you
all come over after the shift ends."

Although the FK vampires probably wouldn't order this, one thing that makes
me cringe in stories set in my area is, "What kind of pop do you have?" No one
says that around here, it is "What kind of coke do you have?" (or less
commonly, soda or cold drink) Yet, "pop" is used in areas we used to travel
when I was a kid.

My brother and I learned that to avoid funny looks at restaurants when
traveling out of state, to use "pop" just as the FK vampires would have to
learn.

Funny this came up as when watching more FK second season last night, I was
thinking of all the languages LaCroix would have had to learn over the years.
Or maybe as the languages developed, the development was so slow that LaCroix
simply learned the languages as they came into existence.

Then there's Screed who seemed to say, "To 'eck with proper Kingsie
Ick-o-lish! Me jammy-jam h'iz me h'own, eh?"

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:13:00 -0800
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: Re: FK moment

This is my favorite line from the article:

"To most rural Africans, rats are either a pest or
added protein for an evening meal."

Oh SCREEEEEEED....ya bin to Africer laterly?
--- Emily <emilymhanson@y.......> wrote:

> While reading the news online, I came across a story
> about rats being
> used to clear out landmines in Africa.  How could I
> not think about
> FK?  ;)
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 2005 14:46:12 -0700
From:    Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: Writing in English

Speaking of contractions, there is a set of contractions that is commonly used
in speaking and seen much less often in writing, it's the contractions for
"would have, could have, should have": would've, could've, should've (NOT would
of, could of, should of!)

As in:
"I wish I could've remembered Nat's birthday, because I should've bought her a
present."
"Yeah, Nick, you'd think that you would've at least picked up a card!"

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 15 Jan 2005 to 16 Jan 2005 (#2005-16)
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