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FORKNI-L Digest - 6 Jul 2003 to 7 Jul 2003 (#2003-194)

Mon, 7 Jul 2003

There are 6 messages totalling 207 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Literacy question (6)

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Date:    Sun, 6 Jul 2003 18:29:17 +0100
From:    Kezia Hepden <kezia.hepden@b.......>
Subject: Re: Literacy question

Judy asked:

> I believe Nick could read and write as a mortal because his sister was
> reading an astronomy book. Am I right?
>
> Could Lacroix read and write? Did he know how to do more than sign his name?

Well, it may seem strange to us today, but right up until the early 19th
century, reading and writing were regarded as distinctly seperate skills.
And reading was by far the commoner skill.  The reason - so they could read
their prayer books and, later, the Bible.  But you don't have to write in
order to do that, and writing was reserved, especially prior to the
introduction of the printing press, almost exclusively for the clergy.  So
as the son and daughter of a well-born household, I would expect Nicholas
and Fleur de Brabant to be able to read and to be numerate, but *not* to be
able to write - except the one thing they had to know, which was their own
name.  In the 13th century, very few European monarchs could write more than
their own name, let alone the lesser nobility.  Comparatively little was
written down, and it was mostly legal matters (court rulings, etc),
religious or a small amount of medieval literature.

However, the Romans were very keen on education - Lucius, as a Legate, would
be fully literate in at least Greek and Roman, fully numerate and... an
engineer!  All Roman army officers were taught engineering and would be able
to construct roads, bridges, military camps, siege engines and more.  And he
was probably given an education in classical literature too - Ovid,
Socrates, Plato, Homer, Julius Caesar to name but a few.   He may also have
learnt the local languages of wherever he served as an officer - and it was
common practice to move officers around the Empire every three or four
years, and for some jobs they held office for just one year only before
going on to the next task.  So he could have spoken half a dozen languages
before he was brought across.

My money is on LaCroix being the one who taught both Nicholas and Janette to
do more than just read, and who introduced them to first basic literacy and
numeracy, and then to the classical arts.

Cousin Kezia

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Date:    Sun, 6 Jul 2003 19:50:22 -0400
From:    Mary Combs <mcombs@e.......>
Subject: Re: Literacy question

Kezia wrote:
<snip> reading and writing were...distinctly seperate skills.
>And reading was by far the commoner skill. <snip>

A couple of other things thing to keep in mind about writing in Nick's time:

Writing was a difficult skill to master, requiring a standard of penmanship
that few of us possess today. The materials were valuable, and had to be
used carefully and efficiently.

Unless he or she had a gift for it or some particular interest, there was no
need for a person of stature to learn to write quickly and easily. There
were reams (pardon the pun) of professionals (scribes, clerks) who played
that role.

A great household would have more than one person available to take
dictation and put his master's or mistress' words down cleanly and
concisely. The experienced scribe would write faster than his
master--possibly with a young assistant at hand to trim and freshen the
pens.

In a substantial town or city, you could buy this service; in fact, even
though you couldn't read, you could send a letter, and even if the recipient
couldn't read (or couldn't read well), your friend or family member (or
business contact) could have it read to him by a pro.

A 20th-century parallel would be all those business and professional men who
would never dream of touching a typewriter or writing out a letter in
longhand--that's what secretaries were for.

Mary
mcombs@e.......

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Date:    Sun, 6 Jul 2003 17:26:04 -0700
From:    Megan Hull <mistrydder@y......>
Subject: Re: Literacy question

>boys who were to become Knights were send away from home for training (usually
>at age 7)but their pre-military training included reading, writing , music,
>dancing and playing chess.

According to my scorces (don't ask me for a reference, I gave that book back to
the library weeks ago), these 'courtly' behaviours and skills didn't become
common for knights until the 14th century, and our Nicky-boy is 13th.  They
still tended to be heavily militaristic then.

                                     -Megan


"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Jul 2003 22:24:47 -0400
From:    Mary Combs <mcombs@e.......>
Subject: Re: Literacy question

Megan wrote:

> According to my scorces (don't ask me for a reference, I gave
> that book back to the library weeks ago), these 'courtly'
> behaviours and skills didn't become common for knights until the
> 14th century, and our Nicky-boy is 13th.

The importance of "courtoisie" in the ideal knight developed during the 12th
century and was well-established by the time Nick was born. A knight of his
standing in society and from his part of the world (two factors as important
as time-frame when talking about medieval life) would have been thoroughly
trained in 'courtly' behaviors and skills.

It's possible that the book Megan had was old or was perpetuating very
outdated views of the medieval world. Unfortunately, there is a lot of bad
information still floating around.

A couple of other books (among many) to check out on this subject: Chivalry,
by Maurice Keen; or The Knight in History by Frances Gies.

Mary
mcombs@e.......

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Date:    Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:43:38 +0200
From:    Doris Weiss <dorisweiss_2000@y......>
Subject: Re: Literacy question

This has nothing to do with the topic itself but I
just have to say this:

Only being on the list for a rather short time I am
(in a very positive fashion!) astonished how thorough
and well-read the list members are. And how much
attention we (including myself, grin) fiction writers
give to historical detail.

If only the script writers had been half that diligent
sometimes.

Kudos to all out there.

Luc

=====
"Even eternal life is too short to wait for a table." - Uncle -
http://www.geocities.com/lucilla2010/index.html

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:56:26 -0700
From:    Megan Hull <mistrydder@y......>
Subject: Re: Literacy question

>It's possible that the book Megan had was old or was perpetuating very
>outdated views of the medieval world. Unfortunately, there is a lot of
>bad information still floating around.

quite possible.  Also, it may have been focusing mainly on England, if I
remember correctly, which, as you said, would make a huge difference.

                -Megan


"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 6 Jul 2003 to 7 Jul 2003 (#2003-194)
*************************************************************



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