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FORKNI-L Digest - 6 Mar 2002 to 7 Mar 2002 (#2002-70)

Thu, 7 Mar 2002

There are 17 messages totalling 578 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Differences between Angel & FK (3)
  2. Thesis (5)
  3. John Kapelos on X-FIles
  4. Hooray for Cassar
  5. Thesis: why vampires?
  6. Why Vampires?
  7. Nick and religious items
  8. Admin: Rose's thesis answers should be offlist (2)
  9. Goth Commentary (was Re: Thesis)
 10. A not-so-accidental tourist in need of assistance, please.


Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:09:28 +0000
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@a.......>
Subject: Re: Differences between Angel & FK

> On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:18:10 EST, Liv wrote:

> My impression of FK is that in the third season, the
> one with Vachon and Tracy, it suddenly became a lot
> more 'religious'--before, it was hard to tell if
> vampirism was a real thing or a state of mind, and

I thought the first two seasons were much more religious
(for instance, the Joan of Arc ep) and clearly showed
Nick's view ("I'm damned") vs. Nat's view ("You're
infected") and thus illustrated the main thrust of the
show (IMO, of course). The third season brought in more
supernatural stuff, for instance ghosts (although Nick
did see Erika's ghost? spirit? in the first season).

> suddenly it became something that was definitely real
> and unholy. At the same time, of course, there were
> shows like the vampire dog that seemed to go against
> that idea.

The Vampire Puppy plot was just plain evil. <g>

Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@a....... <--note new email address


Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:49:45 -0800
From:    phylis sullivan <phylis_s_2000_2001@y.......>
Subject: Re: Thesis

--- Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>

> Why are vampires so fun to write about?

Besides the fact they are so facinating, maybe it is
because they can do so much more than we mere mortals
can.  For example:  Live forever, fly, and they are
extremely strong.  Those are just a few, I am sure
there are more.  Just my thoughts, Phylis.


Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:41:04 -0500
From:    Mary Denhart <mdenhart@c.......>
Subject: John Kapelos on X-FIles

It was just reported in an X-files spoiler list I am on, that in an
upcoming x-files episode, John Kapelos will guest as an FBI agent.  It
is episode 14 titled "Improbable".  According to the current schedule
that episode will be airing on April 14th.



Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:01:26 +0800
From:    Elliza Rahim <relliza@h.......>
Subject: Re: Differences between Angel & FK

>Libs wrote:
>What... Screed has a "wonderful impact on female fans" and
>"thrills down your spine"??? OOOOH! *snork* Proof at last!

Well, he did keep the ratsies under control - that's a wonderful impact as
far as I'm concerned...Thrills down your spine bit - that was really for LC.



Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:12:13 EST
From:    Brianna Alicia Becerra <EchoTiarra@a.......>
Subject: Re: Thesis

--- Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>

> Why are vampires so fun to write about?

My opionion is that not only are they seductive but its also because they
have beaten death-what is a stronger lure than immortality and beating death?
Especally if you can give your lover that. Just my ten cents.

Cousin Bree


Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:19:43 -0800
From:    Lady Ariake <lady_ariake@y.......>
Subject: Re: Thesis

--- Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
> Why are vampires so fun to write about?

Huh.  Well.  We can start with my having a morbid
fascination with blood, death, and forensics.
(Actually I'm more into forensic anthro and
ondontology than the medicine with the yicky soft
tissues, but there you are.)  I don't know why.  I'm
not a Goth with a bad black dye job and nails moping
about the meaninglessness of life et al (and in fact
those people drive me up a wall) but I find death
interesting.  Blood was less so until I nearly died
last year from a rare autoimmune disease and got
transfused with four units.  (Public Service
Announcement: Give Blood.  /PSA)  I also like old
things.  Antiques, books, broken bits of stuff I dig

As such, vampires would seem a natural extension.  And
I do like the concept.  In general.  There's certainly
the romantic/erotic aspect, I could see something
there.  There's being able to cheat death, in a way.
There's living after dark, for the most part.  I like
the idea of vampires, but I couldn't find vampires I
really liked.  So I started writing my own.  I have a
story in the Winter 2001-2002 issue of Dreams of
Decadence: Vampire Fiction and Poetry.  I like writing
about them because my vampires inhabit a landscape
drawn by Edward Gorey.  There's a very matter-of-fact
otherness to them.  Something's a bit weird, but not
shockingly so.  I like to use vampires, and
werewolves, and any other little creature I think of,
to leave a reader feeling just slightly...off.  Also,
I like using them because they can have a huge range
of experiences.  I'm not stuck completely.  With Jozef
(the character in the DoD story) I can jump from the
early nineteenth century to the mid-twentieth without
having to switch characters.  And I get to play with
his development over a very long time.  He can react
to the Civil War (or what passed for it in his
universe) and World War II.

> Rome was not built by holding committe meetings.  It
> was done by killing all
> those who opposed them.

I've been meaning to mention, I just LOVE this sig


"If you're going to have delusions of grandeur, go for the really satisfying
ones."  (Marcus Cole, Anla'shok, or my life motto.)

"...In all things trust the Weyrfolk, for their cause is just and true."



Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:27:10 +0800
From:    Elliza Rahim <relliza@h.......>
Subject: Re: Thesis

Most of the replies thus far referred to the Western TV/movie/literary
tradition vampire. And our favourite angsty FK vampire.

I'd like to bring in another aspect. In South East Asia, female vampires
(called Pontianak) make great revenge or romance type stories.
In folklore, they take revenge on : 1) men who raped/murdered them
2)husbands who strayed

Romance stories on the other hand usually involve a man falling in love with
the Pontianak from a distance and going through all sorts of emotional
struggle before succeeding in transforming the vampire into a mortal woman.
This task is usually achieved in folklore by driving an iron nail into the
neck of the vampire.

Just another of my $.02


Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:33:07 +1300
From:    Knightraven <kiwisun@i.......>
Subject: Re: Thesis

> Why are vampires so fun to write about?

Mmm..why indeed. I find them alluring and fun to write about because they
offer an element of supernatural, or more exact, a super humanness that can
create a person or universe where normal human attributes can be thrown out
the door. Yet it, and probably most importantly, allows one to keep certain
human attributes as well. Emotions, character weaknesses and strengths, etc.
Assuming a writer portrays the vampire to still have some, if not all, of
these human characteristics still within them after they have been brought

The idea of being able to span ages, centuries, lifetimes etc, opens a
wonderful door to develop interesting story ideas, plots and settings.

Then there is the 'dark' side of the vampire which seems to be intriguing
and attractive in certain forms. It can portray a strength, which I think
attracts both male and female, especially those who admire this quality in a
human mate.
The more 'evil' side of the vampire, again, seems to really be a exaggerated
form of the same which can be seen in a human...which can make characters
supervillans, just as much as they can be superheroes.
The internal battle, or lack of, between good and evil, human and vampire, I
find attractive...the endless question which asks, "Is a person, human or
vampire, inherently evil from birth(are they made this way) or are they a
product of their environment?(how they are raised).
I personally believe it is a mixture of the both, and find it  enjoyable
writing and discovering a journey in which a being becomes the person they
are at any given time or place. Having said that, I do have a few exceptions
to this belief.

So in a nut shell, the attraction is finding the similarities and
differences between human and vampire, and seeing what conflicts and
co-existences can be developed while creating an interesting fantasy world
and spinning an exciting adventure!

Good luck Rose.<g>



Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:36:10 -0800
From:    Knight Ranger <knightranger4ver@y.......>
Subject: Hooray for Cassar

I was delighted to see that Jon Cassar directed last
night's episode of "24".  For those that missed it, it
will repeat on FX on Sunday and Monday night.

Knight Ranger

e-mail:  KnightRanger4ver@y.......
Geraint Wyn Davies Fan for Life!  (GWDFC/GWDN)
Dark Knightie/Nick & Nat Packer/Caddy Whack/FOREVER KNIGHT Die Hard
BLACK HARBOUR Lobster Yacht Lot/Harbour Light
"We Are The Lemmings And We're Proud!"


Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:36:46 EST
From:    MadiHolmes@a.......
Subject: Re: Differences between Angel & FK

In a message dated 03/06/02 5:22:41 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
Libratsie@a....... writes:

> << >MadI wrote: What is it with vampires with British accents and monologues?
> It's TPTB - they know what wonderful impact it has on female fans..."thrills
> down your spine" and all that. >>
> And in FK, both Nigel Bennett and Greg Kramer ARE originally British, James

Oh, I realize that the guy who plays Spike isn't British, that's why I put
"British vampires." That guy's so good, though, that I nominate him to play
John Constantine :)



Date:    Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:43:17 -0800
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Thesis: why vampires?

> > Why are vampires so fun to write about?
I am a huge fan of vampires (the old fashioned creepy
ones, not the commercial Hollywood type) and I can
tell you why. It is the idea of breaking down all the
barriers of morals and taboos and venturing into a
lifestyle where you are the beautiful, the powerful
and the only law. It could be also the fact that
vampires don’t subdivide their community based on
race, gender or sexuality, so there is ultimate
freedom and an equal chance of authority for everyone.
Female vampires are as strong, sometimes even
stronger, than male vampires. The penetral
characteristic of dominant sex looses its
exclusiveness to males. Sex with sibling, parent,
child… is no longer considered improper. For a
vampire, seduction is part of her nature, and not a
skill, which one might not have. Quite trilling I
would say.

I can go on forever talking about this, but I think
I’ll stop right there :)


Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk

"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"

                           -Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn


Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 02:18:21 EST
From:    Jean Graham <JeanG477@a.......>
Subject: Why Vampires?

Rose Thatcher posed the intriguing question: Why are vampires so fun to write
about? Well, the answer to that could take pages, but to keep it *fairly*

1) They're an ever-evoloving but pervasive myth common to virtually every
culture on Earth.

2) It's a legend rife with symbolism. Blood, for instance, can represent life
(or death), forgiveness, redemption, revenge, sexuality, loyalty, lineage...
(This list could go on for pages, too.)

3) Vampires are fascinating dichotomies. They're both captivating and
horrific; they embrace both eternal life and unending death; they're forever
young, yet incredibly old.

And 4) Vampire lore can embody so many wonderful literary themes. Take FK
(hey, we're on topic!), for example. FOREVER KNIGHT's premise addressed such
lofty themes as good vs. evil, light & darkness, hope & despair, God & faith,
the outsider struggling to balance two irreconcilable worlds, self-loathing
vs. self-acceptance, humanity's foibles (and failings and cruelties, as well
as its potential nobility), alienation & loneliness, nihilism, forbiddden
and/or doomed love, immortality, guilt, judgment, intolerance, inner
demons/conflicts, addiction, idealism, romanticism and altruism -- just to
name a few!

In my book, that's quite a legacy for one "little" TV series. It's also just
a few of the reasons why I like to write about vampires.

--Jean Graham, who has published both fan and pro vampire stories, some of
which can be read at http://members.aol.com/JeanB7


Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 02:20:37 -0500
From:    "S. Babbitt" <sbabbitt@b.......>
Subject: Re: Nick and religious items

Our esteemed Listmommy wrote:
>I see the Vachon not affected by crosses -- a point I don't think the
>series every showed -- as a mistake like the Battle of Hastings and FK
>vampires not having blood of their own.

Not having read the third book yet, I can't discuss intelligently its
representation of Vachon's response to religious artifacts, but within the
series as televised, I believe that the writers--Gillian in
particular--were trying to convey, deliberately and consistently, that
Vachon is not quite like "ordinary" vampires in terms of handling
uncomfortable stimuli. First of all, they have him LIVING in a church.
(Abandoned, yes, but a church nonetheless.) Now, if that isn't an
in-your-face example of how this vampire is a bit different from the
others, I can't imagine what is. :-)  A couple of other examples of
Vachon's "sensory" difference from other FK vampires:

* When he wakes up the night after being brought across, he is not overcome
by the hysterical frenzy of "first hunger;" instead, he retains the
calculating presence of mind to find and STAKE his brother/enemy, even
though we are never given to understand that his Master ever bothered to
*tell* him that he and the Inca would wake up as vampires.

* He is, apparently, far less inclined to succumb to mindless bloodlust
than many vampires, in part because he retains an abiding respect for human
life. Perhaps because his Master brought him and the Inca across for the
*express* purpose of championing those who love life and winnowing out
those who do not (even if Vachon didn't buy it at the time), he appears to
be relatively discerning about whom he kills, no matter how badly he wants
to do the deed. "We don't live to kill; we kill to live," he specifies.

Basically, I think the FK writers intended for us, the audience, to
understand that Vachon, for whatever reason, is better able than most
vampires to let unpleasant sensations "roll off his back," rather than
internalizing them. Given that he never had formal "vampire training" from
his Master, he either must have taught himself some specialized coping
tricks; or he must have picked them up from someone exceptionally learned.
I like to think that he learned how to integrate his own nature with the
hazard-fraught world in which he exists from the Mississauga.

So, to summarize: Vachon ain't no mistake! :-)

Stephanie Babbitt (sbabbitt@b.......), Atlanta, GA
Vaquera (Because I Can), MadNatter, N&NPacker
Nobody Dies. Nobody Ever Died.


Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:14:07 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Admin: Rose's thesis answers should be offlist

 Just a reminder. Replies to Rose for her vampire thesis are supposed to go to
her offlist, if it concerns vampires without reference to FK.  This is because
the rules include one against general vampire discussion. When the
list was new, we got a lot of this, and Jaye had to institute the rule because
people were being overwhelmed.)

I realize that replies which have appeared on Forkni-l most likely came from
hitting reply without checking to see that the address in To: was Rose's instead
of Forkni-l's. I've done that myself. So please check or write a new message to
Rose instead of using the reply function.

 Rose, would you like to give your e-address again on the list?


McLisa, at her office without access to her e-address book
listowner, Forkni-l


Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:20:15 -0800
From:    CD <clouddancer@c.......>
Subject: Goth Commentary (was Re: Thesis)

Posted with McLisa's permission.


> It was written on FORKNI-L:
> I'm not a Goth with a bad black dye job and nails moping about
> the meaninglessness of life et al.

Just wanted to clear up a common stereotype, not flame. I am goth. I was
goth before I even knew there was a label to attach to the lifestyle.
It's not about dye jobs and moping. Many, but *not* all of us have a
love of vampires in general and Forever Knight in particular. One friend
describes goth as "an embracing of all that society fears, which
therefore strips the fear away and leaves us more open to ideas." We all
love life and diversity and acceptance...

What is goth? If you're interested, this link offers an excellent
commentary on the subject:




Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:41:03 -0700
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: Rose's thesis answers should be offlist

>  Just a reminder. Replies to Rose for her vampire thesis are supposed to
>go to her offlist, if it concerns vampires without reference to FK.

Sorry Mcmommy! (sounds like a vampire fast food thing)  Here's my addy for
those that want to reply.  <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>  And please do
reply! I need a good number of answers to give percentages of thoughts. :)
(that made little to no sense.) <G>

Rome was not built by holding committe meetings.  It was done by killing all
those who opposed them.


Date:    Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:10:06 -0500
From:    Carrie Krumtum <carriekr@m.......>
Subject: A not-so-accidental tourist in need of assistance, please.

Hi there all,

Okay, I'm willing to bet that there are a great many of you on the list
these days who have no idea who I am. That's fine. I'm still going to
ask for some help.

Once upon a time and in a land long, long ago (non-sense, my speciality)
I wrote some fanfic for this show and I'm about to be at it again. That
means I need beta readers. Here's the catch. I write LONG stories so I
need some folk with staying power. I also need pretty fast turn around
times. If anyone is interested and want to know what flavor of author I
am, just take a stroll through some of my ancient stuff on fkfanfic.com.
You'll find me under the Author K's.

Carrie Krumtum, that's me.

Anyone interested in a new trot through some fanfic please email OFF
list. I'll need at least three folk. Hope to be hearing from some of

Oh yeah, there's chocolate in the bargain for anyone who makes it all
the way to the end. I've some old beta readers who can vouch for that.
"For some must watch while some must sleep. Thus runs the world away." -
The Bard, Hamlet III.II.273-4


End of FORKNI-L Digest - 6 Mar 2002 to 7 Mar 2002 (#2002-70)

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