FORKNI-L
FORKNI-L Digest - 23 Feb 2002 to 24 Feb 2002 (#2002-57)
Sun, 24 Feb 2002
There are 21 messages totalling 992 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Admin: Let's all cool off (2)
2. Asking for help (also a form of publicity for FK) (3)
3. KtK auction info
4. KtK auction update - Saturday
5. Janette or Nat? final segment I promise! (2)
6. Janette or Nat? final segment I promise! (3)
7. Thanks for all the hlep with the LaCroix question
8. Janette, Natalie, Sunny ducking from McLisa :)
9. the seasons reorder Nick's choices (2)
10. Admin: Rules are Rules and these are ours
11. CD in 3rd season, Killing Tracy, etc, was Re: Janette or Nat? final
segment I promise!
12. KtK auction update - Sunday morning
13. CD in 3rd season, Killing Tracy, etc (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:53:28 -0500
From: mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Admin: Let's all cool off
Ahm, guys, I was hoping this would cool off without my having to intervene.
Please, this thread about Janette or Natalie is getting a little too hot,
and a little too close to flame potential. In fact, if I hadn't been sick
when it started and therefore less than normally vigilant, I'd have already
asked for a cooler approach.
Please, let's remember that we are all entitled to our opinions. All
opinions are equally valid because this is not something which can be
settled by a fact, like the temperature or the precise time. We are all
friends, indeed family, on Forkni-l. That means we treat each other with
respect, whether we agree or not. So, please, let's calm down and if
possible agree to disagree.
Thanks!
McLisa
mclisa@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:13:10 EST
From: Spaine3@a.......
Subject: Re: Asking for help (also a form of publicity for FK)
Sunny, I was glad to hear about your proposed paper (feminist implications of
FK show),but when is the paper due?
And will you make it available for us to read? I used to teach through a
feminist education group and would love to read it.
Sue Paine
P.S. One of the reasons I liked the third season least was the introduction
of the Marilyn Monroe stand-in Urs: a victim alive and a victim undead. Retro
Woman, I dubbed her. This is not a comment on Kristin Lehman, but on the
direction of the show which had removed two strong women (Janette and Captain
Cohen) seemingly to pursue that desired young male demographic. Sigh.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:42:37 -0800
From: Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: Let's all cool off
--- mclisa <mclisa@m.......> wrote:
> Ahm, guys, I was hoping this would cool off without
> my having to intervene. Please, this thread about
> Janette or Natalie is getting a little too hot,
> and a little too close to flame potential.
Hmm, I don't know, I never felt that way. Everyone on
this list is very intelligent and open-minded and they
all came up with very interesting points. I enjoyed
what I learned during this discussion. And although
there are different opinions, the tone is never
rougher than a typical academic debate. But that is my
opinion and I've been told I have high flame
tolerance, so as this is McLisa's domain, her word
goes.
;)
-Sunny
=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk
"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"
-Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:08:26 EST
From: Knightwave@a.......
Subject: KtK auction info
With the end of the auction still planned for tomorrow night, I wanted to
mention how I would deal with the updates. Since multiple updates have
worked in the past on the last day, I think I'll continue to do that. Once
the close of the auction is within an hour, I'll post **only** the new bids
as fast as I can type them and get them out. If things aren't coming too
quickly, I'll send out the whole list, new and old bids. At least one of
those should make it before the end. If no one objects, I'll also send out
bids on a bidders list, just to be safe.
Just remember, you have to give the post enough time to get to me. As long
as the time stamp is before midnight, it will be counted. I can't be
responsible for lost emails or late posts. Sorry... If you want to be on
top of things, and can get access to an Instant Message program, either aol
or internet, you can send me bids through the IMs too.
We hope everyone has had a good time with the auction. <g>
Enjoy,
April
knightwave@a.......
knightwave@j.......
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:33:44 EST
From: Knightwave@a.......
Subject: KtK auction update - Saturday
Sorry the update is late today. <g> I can't believe you guys are going
to let NdB grab that matchbook for $100.00 <laugh>
If you have any questions or problems, let me know. If you see any
errors in your bidding, please do say something. With so many items, I
can't see getting through this auction without at least one mistake. <g>
The web site for the auction is Kickstart the Knight (
http://www.ktk.op.nu/ ) All of the pictures are up. *thanks, Becky!!*
Note: items #26, #27, #28, & #29 are a series of zines. If the same
person bids high on all four, Susan will include a ktk t-shirt as a bonus.
KtK auction update for Saturday, Feb 23, 2002
#1 $00.00 white Black Harbour t-shirt (L)
#2 $00.00 white Black Harbour t-shirt (L)
N #3 $10.00 Diana Yellow T-shirt of Janette (L)
#4 $00.00 white T-shirt Spike of BtVS (M)
N #5 $20.00 Nancy white T-shirt Spike of BtVS (M)
N #6 $10.00 Diana white T-shirt of Vachon (XL)
#7 $00.00 Black Harbour sweatshirt (M)
N #8 $15.00 Diana Orange t-shirt of Schanke (XL)
#9 $13.57 Vamps Blue T-shirt of LaCroix (XL)
#10 $15.00 Sara Tan T-shirt LaCroix (XL)
#11 $16.57 Vamps Tan sweatshirt Vachon (XL)
#12 $27.00 Sara gray Polo shirt hand-stitched (XL)
#13 $17.57 Vamps Black t-shirt hand-stitched (XL)
#14 $17.57 Vamps T-shirt hand-stitched (XL)
#15 $17.57 Vamps Sweatshirt hand-stitched
#16 $20.00 Dianne Black baseball cap, autograph pic
#17 $26.00 Edwina Baseball cap autograph by Ger
#18 $100.00 NdB Raven matchbook
#19 $10.00 Stephanie Autograph pic of Natsuko Ohama
N #20 $35.00 Alma FK License Plate
N #21 $18.28 KnightRanger FK zine Endless Love vol. 1
N #22 $15.00 Diana FK zine Sins of the Father 94 pgs
N #23 $11.00 Emily FK novella Training Mission 50 pgs
#24 $30.00 Maria FK zine A Taste of Forever 324 pgs
N #25 $18.28 KnightRanger FK zine Let There Be Light
N #26 $15.00 Diane FK zine En Famille
N #27 $15.00 Diane FK zine Cauchemer
N #28 $15.00 Diane FK zine Lagniappe
N #29 $15.00 Diane FK zine Samskar
#30 $10.00 Rose Nick original artwork
N #31 $25.00 WRD Variety Ad autographed by Ger
N #32 $25.00 WRD HR ad autographed by Ger
#33 $05.00 Sara Nigel playbill "Art"
#34 $10.00 Annette Nigel playbill "Scrooge"
#35 $00.00 Nigel playbill "Closer"
#36 $25.00 Barbara FK mousepad - rubber mouse
#37 $00.00 b/w Tracy Vetter mini poster
N #38 $50.00 MRK Psi Factor book
N #39 $23.00 Desiree Set of 12 Canadian 2000 coins
#40 $12.28 KnightRanger feature on Ger's "My Fair Lady
N #41 $15.00 Sue Hearts of Darkness script
N #42 $30.00 Sue Curiouser & Curiouser script
#43 $05.00 Linda Video of early Ger in IKWE
#44 $10.00 Annette Nigel's "Hamlet" poster autographed
#45 $20.00 MGB Lg Rubber Raven, pic of Deborah
N #46 $10.00 MGB Color print of "The Knightmare"
#47 $50.00 Elfin Plum sweatshirt hand-stitched Raven
#48 $25.00 Barbara Navy T-shirt hand-stitched Raven
N #49 $30.00 Sue Blue sweatshirt hand-stitched FK logo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:13:35 EST
From: Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat? final segment I promise!
Don't know why there's such h'a debate-o-matic, Oi don't....
Nat an' Screed 'ave such a hot thingee goin' an' goin' an goin', tha' Nick
moight h'az well give h'up an' go wit' Janette.
Libs
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:27:55 -0800
From: Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Asking for help (also a form of publicity for FK)
The paper is due Monday ( at least the first draft is)
I'm trying to be as precise as possible but it is one
thing writing for the fandom itself who knows the
premise and doesn't need description on what factions
are and what wars are all about, a whole different
thing to write it for a clueless audience. I'm glad
that it is supposed to be a long paper, but at the
same time, it's a hell of a lot of work.
I'll put it on my website (as soon as I finish making
one) and make it available for everyone to read. Also,
if anyone likes to read it before that, I can email it
too them. But beware, this is a major academic paper
and hence, there is a lot of Arts and Culture
discussion going on beside the FK stuff.
Thanks for the reply; I'll let you know when it's
finished. Thanks for the opinion on third season
characters, I'll probably quote that in the essay.
-Sunny
--- Spaine3@a....... wrote:
> Sunny, I was glad to hear about your proposed paper
> (feminist implications of
> FK show),but when is the paper due?
>
> And will you make it available for us to read? I
> used to teach through a
> feminist education group and would love to read it.
>
> Sue Paine
>
> P.S. One of the reasons I liked the third season
> least was the introduction
> of the Marilyn Monroe stand-in Urs: a victim alive
> and a victim undead. Retro
> Woman, I dubbed her. This is not a comment on
> Kristin Lehman, but on the
> direction of the show which had removed two strong
> women (Janette and Captain
> Cohen) seemingly to pursue that desired young male
> demographic. Sigh.
=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk
"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"
-Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:30:01 -0800
From: Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Asking for help (also a form of publicity for FK)
Oops, that was supposed to go private! Sorry guys, I'm
a little over my head with this essay thing.
Peace
-Sunny
=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk
"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"
-Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:30:01 -0600
From: "Nancy E. Kaminski" <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat? final segment I promise!
> Eve Dutton wrote:
First, as Eve stated, this is my opinion only. This discussion will never be
concluded on one side or the other!
> the Raven, because it's what she believes is the right thing to do. Yes,
> she only wants what's best for Nick--what *she* thinks is best. Not
> necessarily what Nick wants, or even what he needs.
I have to agree with that.
> >Perhaps some people are just disappointed that their wasn't more love
> scenes with Nick and Nat, so they look down on the ones that are there.
Absolutely not. What I am disappointed in was that TPTB destroyed the dual
triangles that defined the first two seasons, and which set up the basis of the
series: the triangle formed by Nick, Janette, and Lacroix, representing the
dark, the vampire, the life Nick wants to leave, and the triangle formed by
Nick, Nat, and Schanke, representing the light, the mortal, and the life Nick
wants to join. Nick, between these two opposites, is continually torn and
conflicted. It makes for wonderful drama, and those @#$ PTB wrecked it for some
jiggle. Idiots. IMO, of course. <g>
> had some really beautifully scripted and directed scenes
> together, and I'm not saying there isn't an affection between them. I just
> don't think that the recussitation of any kind of long-term relationship
> between them would have worked, as the show presented the characters.
The scene I loved the best between them was the tag scene in which Nick tells
Janette "it's how we live in captivity that matters." They are sad and resigned
and take comfort in each other. It speaks of a longstanding affection and
togetherness.
> At times of course they will come to one another's needs, but what about
> episodes were Nick simply came to Janette to see her? "Curiouser and
> Curiouser," "Partners of the Month," and "Blood Money" are just a few
Those scenes speak more to their long-standing affection, but not necessarily
romantic love.
> So she tries to rekindle their relationship--which probably
> works up to a point. But the shoe's on the other foot now: Nick is happy to
> have her in his life as someone he can have a little fun with, who can
> "ease his burden" when he needs that.
Yes, that's how I see it.
> >the hug in CB, followed by the intense loft scene
> >(something siblings would not do for sure)
But we're talking vampire siblings, and it seems fairly set in canon that
vampire siblings can be and are sexual. The only denial of this was Lacroix
refusing Divia's advances, and that can be put down to the abhorrance held by
Roman society for relations between a father and daughter. Nick and Janette are
siblings in that Lacroix made them both; but they were not related in mortality.
> I think of it as love at first sight. Maybe, not as deep yet, but
> definately enchantment there.
I don't believe in love at first sight. Infatuation due to hormonal rushes,
which could possibly lead to genuine love, but IMO this is just plain out and
out sex.
> Like you say, a matter of opinion. :)
Yup, that's what this all is.
> No, she offered to help him. He didn't ask. He simply
> hypnotized her to forget him.
In Dark Knight, Nat asked Nick "Aren't you the guy who asked me to help him
watch a sunrise?" (paraphrased because I don't have the dialog memorized <g>).
Nat didn't force Nick into this course of action--she couldn't. He couldn't
whammy her, either. If he didn't want to participate in her little science
experiment he could have just vanished, something he was rather good at. He
didn't. He stuck around and volunteered to be her guinea pig.
> the decision was more informed--Natalie didn't deceive him.
> She makes it very clear this isn't going to be easy for him, but she's
> willing to put in time and effort to help him, as long as he is willing to be
> helped.
Well said.
> Actually, she just wants him to have what he *needs.* He
> needs blood to live. It is not healthy for him to starve himself and
> Janette knows that. As does LaCroix. This doesn't relate to alcohol at all.
It was FK that invented the addict analogy, not me.
> Janette certainly makes Nick happier and knows what he needs
> to survive. Nat only does things to harm him or disgust him
> with her protien shakes.
He didn't seem too happy with her when she ratted him out to LC in Father's Day.
He wasn't happy that she tempted him with a finger of blood -- "just a taste.
You know you want it." She tries real hard to bring him back to the life that
disgusted him in a moral way, even while it intoxicated him in a physical way.
Perhaps Nick's wrong, he's nuts, he doesn't know what's good for him. But he
wants to be free to make his own decisions and his own mistakes, to not be told
what to do and how to act by people who have power over him.
Thanks for reviving the art of discussion on this list! Why, it almost seems
like the Old Days, when we had this kind of debate going on ALL THE TIME. Ah, I
remember when...<g>
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......
old timer? Me? Yikes!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:47:06 EST
From: PF820@a.......
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat? final segment I promise!
Hi All,
I am really enjoying the whole Nat/Janette thing. I am one who has
only seen most of the episodes once or twice so I am learning lots of stuff I
missed. I have always wondered what the original writers of the show
intended with the three characters and it is a shame that they ended the show
leaving the issue unresolved. I go back and forth on who I think was Nicks
true love if anyone was. I often think that the writers may have intended
Nat and Janette to be more like the little guys who sit on the characters
shoulders in the old WB cartoons. Remember when Bugs or Daffy would be
considering something and there would be this little angel on one shoulder
encouraging them to do the right thing and then there was the little horned
guy on the other shoulder putting his weight behind the wrong, and often more
fun, choice.
Kind of like they represent the two sides of Nicks conscience. Is
this making sense to anyone??? It is late and I have been up way too long
with a sick 5 year old to be rational! Forgive me for not making sense.
Anyway, it's too bad we can't find out from the shows creators what they
intended!! I also think the casting changes experienced by FK also affected
the shows direction a lot. Especially in the Nick/Nat/Janette relationship.
First they got rid of Janette, and I remember reading that for the third
season the higher ups wanted to get rid of Catherine Disher (not sure if they
wanted to replace her in the Nat role or just get rid of the character
altogether) and Ger insisted on keeping her. If that had been the case would
they have come up with a new love interest? There was Tracy, but they killed
her off as well. Does anyone know if they did that before or after they knew
the show was not going to be renewed?
I will quietly go back to lurking now and hopefully get some sleep!
Patty
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 04:17:08 -0500
From: Cecilia Long <celong@m.......>
Subject: Thanks for all the hlep with the LaCroix question
I wanted to thank all those who sent me private info on my LC question. I
really appreciate it. I knew I could get some god help from the people here!
Again... thanks to you all.. and if anyone else has ideas, please feel free
to write me, and accept this thanks in advance!
Cecilia
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:38:18 -0800
From: Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Janette, Natalie, Sunny ducking from McLisa :)
--- "Nancy E. Kaminski" <nancykam@m.......> wrote:
<< What I am disappointed in was that TPTB destroyed
the dual triangles that defined the first two seasons,
and which set up the basis of the series >>
Agree soooo much. The Dark Trinity on one side, the
happy Sydney-PShake-Souvlaki on the other site. Damn
them for ruining that. If things were up to me, I
would have kept them exactly as they were. Nick not
married to Natalie, not married to Janette, not back
with LaCroix, just where he was, in between, cruising
through Toronto's nights with Schanke at his side.
That was the true spirit of Forever Knight.
<< Thanks for reviving the art of discussion on this
list! Why, it almost seems like the Old Days, when we
had this kind of debate going on ALL THE TIME. Ah, I
remember when...<g> >>
>
I did it, I did it <hiding behind the cabinet from
list mommy's lightning bolts :)> I love it too.
Reminds me of the days when SciFi channel's FK bBoard
was active and hot with discussions <sigh>
-Sunny
=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk
"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"
-Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:27:05 -0500
From: Patty Costantino <psmoot43@h.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat? final segment I promise!
Patty wrote: Nat and Janette to be more like the little guys who sit on the
characters shoulders in the old WB cartoons. Kind of like they represent
the two sides of Nicks conscience. Is this making sense to anyone??? It is
late and I have been up way too long with a sick 5 year old to be rational!
You are being very rational. It makes perfect sense. In fact, I've thought
practically the same thing, except I've replaced Janette with LaCroix
because I've always thought he was tempting and taunting Nick back into the
fold more so than Janette. Remember the eps. Capital Offense? At the end,
Nat convinces Nick not to give in to the bottle of blood in his hand and to
trust her. Then, there's a voice over where LaCroix says "trust me." At
that point, I suddenly envisioned the angel/Nat/moral/mortality and
(Cousins, please don't stake me for saying this!)devil/Lacroix/no
morals/immorality on each of Nick's shoulders. Call me a loony, too!
As far as the Janette/Nat discussion, I've really enjoyed reading all the
posts the last couple days and I don't really have anything to add to Nancy,
Eve, Cecila and Emily's posts. I agree!
Patty (number 2) N&Npacker, Knightie with dark tendencies and Cousin if he
behaves.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:55:27 -0500
From: Patty Costantino <psmoot43@h.......>
Subject: Re: the seasons reorder Nick's choices
Amy wrote: First season implies that the desire for physical
>humanity was a consequence of this epiphany -- that not-killing and
>humanity go together, as killing and vampirism go together.
I agree, and to add to your analogy of humanity/not-killing, I believed that
Nick's desire to not kill was a result of his discovery of his hypocrisy
when it came to killing anyone. There was no difference between guilty or
innocent blood. Killing was wrong regardless of the mortal's vices or
morals.
And this epiphany brings me to one of the flaws in the show. Just for the
sake of discussion, one episode in the third season has always bothered me
with the inconsistency issue of Nick's termination of killing humans. In
the flashback of Outside the Lines, Nick kills a possible traitor during
WWII. And with LaCroix' implantation of the seed of doubt into Nick of her
possible innocence, Nick falls into the same hypocritical dilemma, which he
had succumbed to with the ballerina. IMO, Nick's hundred year stance
against killing any humans breaks down in this instance.
What are your thoughts? If she were a traitor, and since our morals about
killing (at least in the mortal world) are different in times of war, is
there suppose to be a different standard established for traitors vs. the
guilty in this instance?
Patty
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:11:06 -0500
From: mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Admin: Rules are Rules and these are ours
If there is a list mommy, need she be sane? Maybe not, but the rules are for
all our benefit and need to be observed even if McLisa _is_ wearing a cocked
hat and muttering about Waterloo.
If you need a hand or have any questions please don't hesitate to
contact Don Fasig <Argent@e.......> or Lisa McDavid
<mclisa@m.......>.
For tips on managing your Forever Knight subscriptions please visit
Don's page at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7139/fk-lists.htm
List digests are archived at:
http://members.theglobe.com/KnightWind3/forkni.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:27:18 -0700
From: Molly Schneider <thestormborn@m.......>
Subject: Re: Janette or Nat? final segment I promise!
Patty C. wrote:
>>In fact, I've thought practically the same thing, <snip> At that point, I
>>suddenly envisioned the angel/Nat/moral/mortality and (Cousins, please
>>don't stake me for saying this!)devil/Lacroix/no morals/immorality on each
>>of Nick's shoulders. Call me a loony, too!<<
OK, you're a loony. <g> This is what I was attempting to say when I wrote
that Nat represented Nick's light side and Janette his dark side, but the
'triangles' analogy is more clear and makes sense to me. Schanke was a
great loss because I agree that those triangles were destroyed in S3 (no
offense to Tracy/Vachon fans)(and what the heck is the name of that
relationship faction anyway? I forgot...)
The Cousins won't stake you for saying LaCroix is evil. <g> I mean, he does
it so *well*, lol.
>>As far as the Janette/Nat discussion, I've really enjoyed reading all the
>>posts the last couple days <snip><<
So have I! I love discussions like these and, just speaking for myself, I
didn't read any posts that I thought were too hot to handle. If my "Why the
Caddy Wins" posts offended anyone, I really do apologize--I tend to have a
rough sense of humor. :(
Molly/StormBorn
"It isn't fair!" "You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for
comparison is." Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth
stormborne@e....... -or- thestormborn@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:38:01 -0500
From: mclisa <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: CD in 3rd season, Killing Tracy, etc,
was Re: Janette or Nat? final segment I promise!
Patty writes:
> First they got rid of Janette,
USA thought Deborah Duchene wasn't sexy enough! Obviously they didn't know
sexy if it wasn't bleached blonde and falling out of a bathing suit. :( The
official word was that they didn't think the character could be used outside
the Raven. < facial expression for which there is no emoticon>
>and I remember reading that for the third
> season the higher ups wanted to get rid of Catherine Disher (not sure if they
> wanted to replace her in the Nat role or just get rid of the character
> altogether) and Ger insisted on keeping her.
True. They were going to get rid of Nat entirely. He said if she went, so
did he. Unfortunately that was before they got rid of Janette so he was out
of ammunition. I don't know this for a fact, but I wouldn't have put it past
USA to try to do the show without _Nick_. You see, they thought the
principal characters as established couldn't possibly be of interest to
their audience because the characters were all well over thiry (read, the
actors playing the roles, since of course the vampires had to be older.)
> If that had been the case would
> they have come up with a new love interest?
I've been told it was going to be Nick and the neck of the week. Tracy was
always intended for Vachon.
> There was Tracy, but they killed
> her off as well. Does anyone know if they did that before or after they knew
> the show was not going to be renewed?
After. James Parriott's original script had everybody except Reese dead at
the end. Even after he rewrote it, he still had Natalie's death unambiguous.
There's a second draining (I have a copy of the script somewhere, but it's
in the stuff that's still packed up from my move). We saw the stake in LC's
hand come down, although not enter Nick's body. Ger had planned to take that
out and Nat's death out. JP put it back in. Ger removed it again, and
somehow this got back to JP, who flew up to Toronto to be present at the
filming of the ending. Fortunately someone alerted SONY and they called the
set to overrule JP. However, Ger wasn't allowed to put in a shot of CD
moving after Nat was on the floor, which had been intended to prove that she
wasn't dead. The script had LC's voice in the tag over the sunrise, with
the speech at the end of Romeo and Juliet, "A glooming peace this morning
brings, the sun for sorrow will not show his head ... go hence to have sad
speech of this." (The quote is from memory and probably isn't completely
accurate.)
McLisa (Lisa McDavid)
"That will be trouble".
Listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
mclisa@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:53:07 -0700
From: Molly Schneider <thestormborn@m.......>
Subject: Re: the seasons reorder Nick's choices
Patty C. compared Nick's epiphany regarding Sylvaine (forgot the name of the
ep, sorry) and his decision to stop killing anyone with the flashback of OtL
in which he kills a suspected traitor, and asked:
>>What are your thoughts? If she were a traitor, and since our morals
>>about killing (at least in the mortal world) are different in times of
>>war, is there suppose to be a different standard established for traitors
>>vs. the guilty in this instance?<<
To my mind, there is a different standard, but it's tipped in favor of the
traitors merely because one side's "traitor" is the other side's "patriot."
Much more of a grey area than exists with a coldblooded murderer or the
like. In Nick's mind? Well, I would think that in over 700 years of
existence, he would have witnessed a lot of wars and their very messy and
ambiguous morality.
Molly/StormBorn
"It isn't fair!" "You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for
comparison is." Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth
stormborne@e....... -or- thestormborn@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:29:21 EST
From: Knightwave@a.......
Subject: KtK auction update - Sunday morning
Here's the first update for today. Don't forget the auction ends at midnight
est., tonight.
If you have any questions of problems, let me know. If you see any errors in
your bidding, please do say something. With so many items, I can't see
getting through this auction without at least one mistake. <g> The web site
for the auction is <A HREF="http://www.ktk.op.nu/">Kickstart the Knight </A>
( http://www.ktk.op.nu/ ) All of the pictures are up. *thanks,
Becky!!*
If you have any questions or problems, let me know. If you see any
errors in your bidding, please do say something. With so many items, I
can't see getting through this auction without at least one mistake. <g>
The web site for the auction is Kickstart the Knight (
http://www.ktk.op.nu/ ) All of the pictures are up. *thanks, Becky!!*
Note: items #26, #27, #28, & #29 are a series of zines. If the same
person bids high on all four, Susan will include a ktk t-shirt as a bonus.
KtK auction update for Sunday, Feb 24, 2002
N #1 $10.00 Jules white Black Harbour t-shirt (L)
N #2 $05.00 Dena white Black Harbour t-shirt (L)
#3 $10.00 Diana Yellow T-shirt of Janette (L)
N #4 $05.00 Dena white T-shirt Spike of BtVS (M)
#5 $20.00 Nancy white T-shirt Spike of BtVS (M)
N #6 $11.00 Edwina white T-shirt of Vachon (XL)
N #7 $20.00 Jules Black Harbour sweatshirt (M)
N #8 $16.00 Edwina Orange t-shirt of Schanke (XL)
#9 $13.57 Vamps Blue T-shirt of LaCroix (XL)
#10 $15.00 Sara Tan T-shirt LaCroix (XL)
#11 $16.57 Vamps Tan sweatshirt Vachon (XL)
#12 $27.00 Sara gray Polo shirt hand-stitched (XL)
N #13 $25.00 SpaceCat Black t-shirt hand-stitched (XL)
#14 $17.57 Vamps T-shirt hand-stitched (XL)
#15 $17.57 Vamps Sweatshirt hand-stitched
N #16 $30.00 Cecelia Black baseball cap, autograph pic
N #17 $35.00 Mindi Baseball cap autograph by Ger
N #18 $125.00 Jules Raven matchbook
#19 $10.00 Stephanie Autograph pic of Natsuko Ohama
N #20 $40.00 Jules FK License Plate
#21 $18.28 KnightRanger FK zine Endless Love vol. 1
#22 $15.00 Diana FK zine Sins of the Father 94 pgs
#23 $11.00 Emily FK novella Training Mission 50 pgs
N #24 $40.00 Jules FK zine A Taste of Forever 324 pgs
N #25 $20.00 Dena FK zine Let There Be Light
#26 $15.00 Diane FK zine En Famille
#27 $15.00 Diane FK zine Cauchemer
#28 $15.00 Diane FK zine Lagniappe
#29 $15.00 Diane FK zine Samskar
N #30 $15.00 Jules Nick original artwork
#31 $25.00 WRD Variety Ad autographed by Ger
N #32 $35.00 Paula HR ad autographed by Ger
#33 $05.00 Sara Nigel playbill "Art"
#34 $10.00 Annette Nigel playbill "Scrooge"
#35 $00.00 Nigel playbill "Closer"
N #36 $30.00 Jules FK mousepad - rubber mouse
N #37 $05.00 Jules b/w Tracy Vetter mini poster
#38 $50.00 MRK Psi Factor book
N #39 $30.00 Jules Set of 12 Canadian 2000 coins
#40 $12.28 KnightRanger feature on Ger's "My Fair Lady
#41 $15.00 Sue Hearts of Darkness script
#42 $30.00 Sue Curiouser & Curiouser script
#43 $05.00 Linda Video of early Ger in IKWE
N #44 $20.00 SpaceCat Nigel's "Hamlet" poster autographed
#45 $20.00 MGB Lg Rubber Raven, pic of Deborah
N #46 $15.00 Dena Color print of "The Knightmare"
N #47 $55.00 SpaceCat Plum sweatshirt hand-stitched Raven
N #48 $40.00 SpaceCat Navy T-shirt hand-stitched Raven
T #49 $35.00 Dena Blue sweatshirt hand-stitched FK logo
T #49 $35.00 Cecelia " " " " " "
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:38:30 -0500
From: Patty Costantino <psmoot43@h.......>
Subject: Re: CD in 3rd season, Killing Tracy, etc
Lisa wrote about the original LK script, which had been changed per Ger's
request. Since I have the script out of storage, :-) I thought I would
share some additional dialogue and the sequence of events which were
orignally intended as Lisa had already stated.
After Nick drains Natalie completely to ensure absolute death, he hands LC
the stake with a resolve, his eyes betraying a strength of faith. Kneeling
beside Natalie's body, he reaches out and touches her face, then steeles
himself. LC says "Damn you, Nicholas" as he wields the stake and brings it
arching fiercely down. And as Lisa already has mentioned, you don't
actually see the stake go through him. Tight on Nick as he reacts to the
impact of the stake. He falls away and out of shot.
Tight on LaCroix as he looks down at the carnage, deeply saddened, subdued.
He begins to recite: "Oh child. Oh child. My soul and not my child. Dead
art thou. Alas, my child is dead, and with my child my joys are buried."
Then the sun rises on a cloudy day as LC recites from the ending of Romeo
and Juliet in a v.o. (Lisa recited most of it from memory. I had to look
it up! I'm impressed! :-))
Here is the piece in it's entirety.
A glooming peace this morning with it brings.
The sun for sorrow will not show his head.
Go hence to have more talk...of these sad things.
Some shall be pardoned, and some punished.
For never was a story of more woe
than this of Juliet and her Romeo
Then (sadly) for the last time, they faded out.
Even though the script was changed, I still love to read this one from time
to time. Although leaving the ending open to interpretation was much better
for fanfiction purposes and great discussions! :-)
Patty C.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:57:13 -0600
From: "Nancy E. Kaminski" <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: CD in 3rd season, Killing Tracy, etc
> Patty Costantino wrote:
> Go hence to have more talk...of these sad things.
> Some shall be pardoned, and some punished.
> For never was a story of more woe
> than this of Juliet and her Romeo
This would pretty well end the discussion as to whether or not Nat was loved by
Nick. She was his Juliet.
> Even though the script was changed, I still love to read this
> one from time to time. Although leaving the ending open to interpretation
> was much better for fanfiction purposes and great discussions! :-)
I have to say I like this ending better, although as you mentioned the ambiguous
ending is much better fanfic fodder. Some of the very best fanfic was written
presenting either the Dead or Alive scenarios. (Dorothy Elggren's was the most
satisfying Dead scenario fiction; wonderful stuff!) and well, to go from the
sublime to the ridiculous, there's my own "It's a Palindromic Life" in which
everyone's alive, but everything is totally silly.
Cheers, Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......
------------------------------
End of FORKNI-L Digest - 23 Feb 2002 to 24 Feb 2002 (#2002-57)
**************************************************************
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