FORKNI-L
Digest - 8 Jun 2000 to 9 Jun 2000 (#2000-167)
Fri, 9 Jun 2000
There are 26 messages totalling 782 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Episode guide
2. African vampires exposed!
3. Angel stuff
4. Angel vs. FK
5. Angel/FK (2)
6. Time for Another Top 10 List
7. Hayden Christensen (6)
8. 'ello, 'ello! :)= (2)
9. Different stakings
10. Angel and FK (7)
11. Ah yes, the "face" thingie...
12. Admin: Please watch the civility level
13. Elrod and FK
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:04:36 +0200
From: Debi McK <vachesang@s.......>
Subject: Episode guide
I just discovered a site which has episode lists for *lots* of TV shows -
including FK! Try
http://epguides.com/menu/
Click on 'Forever Knight' and you get the complete episode list, and at the
bottom of the page there's a few related links - including one to a 'mini
guide' which includes the following:
---------
Dark Knight
Despite the death of LaCroix, the murders continue with Nick's friend
becoming a victim.
First aired Friday, Jan 8 1999
---------
Wow! Did they go and make a new pilot and not tell anyone??? <g>
Debi McK vachesang@s.......
FKP, NNPacker, and very, very UFfish... strange but true!
"They say if you love someone, let them go. If they're really yours, they
will learn their lessons and return. You will come back, Nicholas. I can
wait. I have all the time in the world..." -- LaCroix
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:13:24 +0200
From: Debi McK <vachesang@s.......>
Subject: Re: African vampires exposed!
On Saturday, June 07, 1980 11:30 PM "Angela Gottfred" wrote:
> they don't eat ticks, they peel open the scabs created by the ticks and
> eat/drink the cows' blood. One young donkey had a very large hole in his
> leg-- excavated with tender loving care by the Oxpeckers.
OK, now I have the *really* warped image of Nick sitting perched on a cow's
back, picking scabs... *definitely* time for coffee......... <g>
Debi McK
<looking furtively around for Knighties, then crawling swiftly back into the
Lurkers Corner and hiding under the Rotten Tomato Deflector (TM) >
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:56:56 -0500
From: Monica Thadine Rodriguez <mrodri14@u.......>
Subject: Re: Angel stuff
I have to first admit to watching Angel also. At first I was bothered by
all the similarities, but now it's a way to get sort of a vamp fix - even
though it leaves much wanting, since they don't really deal with the vamp
issues much - bloodlust, etc. And Angel doesn't really put out that old
world feel, I agree. But the show is aiming at a different sort of
audience than FK was. Quite a bit less cerebral. Although I love all the
sarcastic comments.
>Nancy Kaminski
>who watches Angel/Buffy for the clever dialog, and to watch Spike whine and
>diss everyone in sight
Yes! A good part of why I watch is to see Spike rant on against everyone,
while still trying to ask for favors. It's quite hilarious.
Molly said:
>Methinks LaCroix would have Angel for breakfast! <eg>
Without a doubt! Having him on the show would be very effective if they
were looking for a slaughter fest like AtA/LK was.
>After meeting Angel, Janette would be tempted to wonder
>if Nick 'fathered' or at least tutored the boy in Angst and guilt.
I often wonder myself.
monica
luscious lucius lover
"You really do like me... You just don't know that you do." LaCroix
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:48:10 -0700
From: Storm Born <the_stormborn@y.......>
Subject: Re: Angel vs. FK
--- Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@m.......> wrote:
>>Ger can do accents and look natural in period
costuming. DB can't.<<
Which is what, IMO, distinguishes an actor from a TV
star.
>>Angel doesn't show the weight of years, while Nick
does.<<
Ger handled a complex role with the depth and
consideration it demanded. You *believed* that he had
to struggle to keep his 'beast' in check, you
*believed* that he sought salvation and yet was still
tempted to give in to his vampirism. You even
believed he could still laugh and joke, despite his
situation. The man can act circles around most
stars-for-15-minutes with his facial expressions
alone.
Ahem. OK, I'll stop raving now. <g>
=====
Molly/StormBorn
FKPagan/Cousin/Seducer/Ravenette/DT/Who's Army Legionnaire
the_stormborn@y.......
Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 05:24:33 -0700
From: Sebastian Giovanni <SebastianGiovanni@v.......>
Subject: Angel/FK
I have always had the warped idea that it would be
great to cross Divia over into ANGEL. Scenario: since
BUFFY/ANGEL already established that Vamps don't die
when staked but go to "The Daemon Dimension"(as Angel
did, for awhile) she could be brought back somehow(as
they just did in the ANGEL season ender w/Angel's
Sire, Darla) thru a ritual OR perhaps by the mysterious
Powers(there have to be more that the two who "died"!)
to be given a "second chance." Angel tried to reform
Faith and in the end succeeded. Could he reform Divia?
And what if Qa-Ra also showed up? Could Angel face down
a vampire who just may have been an Atlantean Mage
before his unlife(my scenario for my Divia stories is
that Qa-Ra was such)?
I must say, I DO enjpy theway ANGEL is taking a page
from the FK book by doing flashbacks that correspond
to the modern story.
Oh, and who is "Sebastian Giovanni"? Carl, of course--
subbing from this e-mail because the one I ad subbed
to under "Sebastian LaCroix" got all screwed up(I
can't access that system at the moment).
And yes, for V:TM lovers, I have switched from Toreador
to Giovanni!
Sebastian Dante Giovanni
==
"I have seen evil on this earth in all it's
forms..." General Lucius Giovanni(LaCroix)
"Life can cheat death; it will always find a
way!"--Divia Giovanni(LaCroix)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:20:18 -0700
From: Storm Born <the_stormborn@y.......>
Subject: Time for Another Top 10 List
Top 10 Pieces of Advice from Lucien LaCroix:
10. Always get the upper hand, any way you can.
9. Always keep the upper hand, any way you can.
8. Prevent your children from access to sharp sticks.
7. If your children gain access to sharp sticks, watch your back.
6. Temptation works better than force
5. Allow yourself a little inconsistency; it keeps your opponents off-guard.
4. Remember that anyone, at any time, *is* your opponent.
3. What you have is almost always better than promises of what you might get.
2. Altruism ends where your own interests begin.
1. Remember: always pillage *before* you burn.
=====
Molly/StormBorn
FKPagan/Cousin/Seducer/Ravenette/DT/Who's Army Legionnaire
the_stormborn@y.......
Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:46:14 -0400
From: "Cindy L. Clark" <ClarkCindy@e.......>
Subject: Re: Angel/FK
From: "Sebastian Giovanni"
> I have always had the warped idea that it would be great to cross Divia
over into ANGEL....
> they just did in the ANGEL season ender w/Angel's Sire, Darla
I look for Darla to become a very Divia-like character, but I believe that
she'll be around to create havoc a lot longer than Divia was.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:53:27 -0400
From: clarkcindy <clarkcindy@e.......>
Subject: Hayden Christensen
According to the U.S. "TV Guide" for June 6-10, Hayden Christensen has
officially gotten the nod to play Anakin Skywalker in the new "Star Wars".
Filming is scheduled to start shooting later this month. Also his present
series for FOX Family Channel, "Higher Ground" has not yet been renewed for
next season.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:06:09 -0700
From: KYER <KYER@p.......>
Subject: 'ello, 'ello! :)=
"Dark Squirette brooded over the battlefield before her. Her knight was in
the thick of it, and it was up to her to save.."
[ Light S:. Psst! Dark? Dark, we're back online.]
"..him from the hordes of angry Enforcers that.."
[Light S.: But, Dark! We're on the List!]
"..where taunting her milord..(Ga awa......<blink> we're what?)"
[Light S.: We're back on line. <grins sheepishly at other listmembers.
Gives a little wave.>
[Dark S. surveys scenario of her imagination, waiting patiently for its
heroine.]
"Darn."
[Kyer: Dark!]
"What?"
As far as this Angel thing everyone is talking about:
How 'bout if they write it up that the Angel show experiences a temporal
shift and all their characters become the FK characters? Then the Great
Mistake can be corrected. <veg>
:)=
Kyer
kyer@p.......
and darn glad to be back amongst you all!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:37:23 -0700
From: Sebastian Giovanni <SebastianGiovanni@v.......>
Subject: Different stakings
The whole thing that seperates BTVS/ANGEL from FK is
obviously the results of a staking--it's RARE to see
an FK vamp disintegtate upon immediate staking. Ob-
viously, the older the vamp, the harder to kill. This
doesn't apply yo BTVS/ANGEL vamps.
Unless, as LaCroix might observe, these vamps are
of a lesser species...
And yes, LaCroix would have a devilishly good time
reducing Angel to tears...he could put him down with
a raised eyebrow and a witticism.
Sebastian Dante Giovanni
DoD/RK/RP/CGW/Enforcers/KoC/FKP
==
"I have seen evil on this earth in all it's
forms..." General Lucius Giovanni(LaCroix)
"Life can cheat death; it will always find a
way!"--Divia Giovanni(LaCroix)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:37:05 EDT
From: MLCVamp@a.......
Subject: Re: Angel and FK
I adore Buffy and her "universe," so I'd best not get started on the
subject!<G> While FK may be superior to Angel's series in some respects, no
one can deny that the Buffy-Angel universe has FK beaten fangs down in
continuity. Joss W. seldom includes any detail without a reason. The
complexity of the story arc is awe-inspiring. (And the writing is
wonderfully witty.)
True, there's no denying that the character of Angel owes something to Nick
(whose relationship with Nat, in turn, strongly echoes that of Barnabas
Collins and Julia -- there's nothing wrong with being derivative, in itself).
One of Angel's best lines is probably a direct tribute to FK -- where he
comments that, until he met Buffy, he spent the past 100 years "honing" his
"brooding skills." OTOH, just as Nick was not the first repentant, tormented
vampire, he was far from the first vampire detective. The use of existing,
established motifs and plot conventions does not necessarily equal "rip-off"!
A fan writer, some months ago, was working on a story in which Nick, Nat, and
LaCroix visit Sunnydale and meet Angel; she was sending the installments by
e-mail to people who requested them. Anybody know what happened to that
unfinished story? I was enjoying it. (I can't think of her name offhand.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:09:33 -0500
From: Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: Angel and FK
> MLCVamp@a.......
> I adore Buffy and her "universe," so I'd best not get started on the
> subject!<G> While FK may be superior to Angel's series in some
> respects, no
> one can deny that the Buffy-Angel universe has FK beaten fangs down in
> continuity. Joss W. seldom includes any detail without a reason. The
> complexity of the story arc is awe-inspiring. (And the writing is
> wonderfully witty.)
It does have better continuity, but as a whole, IMO it's a shallow story
line. But the target audiences are different, too, since FK was aimed at an
older audience. I don't see the overarching themes of good vs. evil, the
nature of sin and redemption, in Buffy/Angel, not in any deep way. To me, FK
was more intellectually stimulating.
> True, there's no denying that the character of Angel owes
> something to Nick (whose relationship with Nat, in turn, strongly echoes
that of Barnabas
> Collins and Julia -- there's nothing wrong with being derivative,
> in itself).
There will be echos of Nick whenever you have an angsty vampire, but it's
some of the filming techniques that are a more direct copy -- e.g. the
rising/setting sun shots.
> repentant, tormented vampire, he was far from the first vampire detective.
The use of
> existing, established motifs and plot conventions does not necessarily
> equal "rip-off"!
One factor I think that sets Angel off from Nick is that he didn't come to
his repentence through his own inner morality -- he had to be cursed before
it happened. And he wasn't an admirable person when mortal -- he was a
drunken, womanizing ne'er-do-well. Nick, on the other hand, was a good man
who fell, and regained his "soul" without external forces (unless you
consider the examples of moral mortals such as St. Joan an external force).
I enjoy Buffy/Angel ad a clever, witty show, but I don't consider it a
classic like FK is. IMO, YMMV, etc., of course!
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:11:38 -0700
From: Storm Born <the_stormborn@y.......>
Subject: Re: Hayden Christensen
Who the blazes is Hayden Christensen? Did he guest on
FK, and if not, please keep OT.
=====
Molly/StormBorn
FKPagan/Cousin/Seducer/Ravenette/DT/Who's Army Legionnaire
the_stormborn@y.......
Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:16:39 EDT
From: Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Hayden Christensen
In a message dated Fri, 9 Jun 2000 3:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Storm Born
<the_stormborn@y.......> writes:
<< Who the blazes is Hayden Christensen? Did he guest on
FK, and if not, please keep OT.>>
I've forgotten who he was on FK, but he was one of the child guest starts -
maybe the British street kid in the WWII flashback? (Man oh man is my head
blocked today).
But it most definitely IS on topic as we were discussion him being in the
running for the Star Wars role a few weeks or so back. I'm rather excited and
looking forward to seeing him! An FK connection to Star Wars!
I just find it satisfying somehow<wRPg>
--Libs
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:21:52 +0000
From: ldyangst@w.......
Subject: Re: Hayden Christensen
On 9 Jun 00 at 12:11, Storm Born wrote:
> Who the blazes is Hayden Christensen? Did he guest on
> FK, and if not, please keep OT.
He was Andre in Fallen Idol.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:28:15 -0700
From: Storm Born <the_stormborn@y.......>
Subject: Re: 'ello, 'ello! :)=
Kyer's back! Kyer's back! Run for the hills!
Er, oh, hi. <g>
Seriously, Kyer--WELCOME BACK!
=====
Molly/StormBorn
FKPagan/Cousin/Seducer/Ravenette/DT/Who's Army Legionnaire
the_stormborn@y.......
Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:28:19 -0700
From: Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Angel and FK
> repentant, tormented vampire, he was far from the first vampire detective.
Um...not having been drawn to vampires (being more of the werewolf type
mineself) before FK, which shows/movies had detective/cop vampires before
Nicholas?
And I agree with Nancy about the intellectual thingee. I always watched FK
in order to stimulate my brain cell. GWD being as cute as a bloodsucker can
get had absolutely *nothing* to do with it! ; )
Whereas I haven't watched even five seconds of Angel, I have seen half an ep
of Buffy. It didn't strike me as very thought provoking---more
monster-of-the-week.
('Course, it *could* be said that Nick had his bimbos-of-the-week, but they
were secondary and in some cases actually had more brains than I do. <eg> )
(I'm not helping the cause much am I, Nancy? ....That's what I thought.)
Kyer signing off! <mutter.>
Oh, wait! Simone! I tried to e-mail you on how much I loved your Ancient
Circles story, but the mail bounced. Please send me your correct addy?
:)=
kyer@p.......
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:38:21 -0700
From: Storm Born <the_stormborn@y.......>
Subject: Re: Hayden Christensen
Open mouth, insert foot! <g> My deepest apologies; I
just got completely lost there.
=====
Molly/StormBorn
FKPagan/Cousin/Seducer/Ravenette/DT/Who's Army Legionnaire
the_stormborn@y.......
Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:51 -0700
From: Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Hayden Christensen
From: <ldyangst@w.......>
> He was Andre in Fallen Idol.
Yes!
I think that LaCroix must have brainwashed the poor kid and turned him evil.
Then some mysterious Force hijacked him to Tatooine where he whammied this
lonely lady into thinking she was some sort of Virgin Mary and he was her
innocent son. Then he whammied the somewhat senile Qui-Gon into taking him
off to Coruscant.
I suspect that Palpatine is not only Sidious in disguise, but LaCroix in
disguise! Or maybe Divia.
It's a plot! Oh, where is Nick? Someone must stop the General('s) Plot!
:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......
Paranoid-Twilight Schitzoid Knightie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:46:21 -0500
From: Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: Angel and FK
> Kyer wrote:
> Um...not having been drawn to vampires (being more of the werewolf type
> mineself) before FK, which shows/movies had detective/cop vampires before
> Nicholas?
I for one can't think of any. Of course, I'm not in the least bit interested
in vampires, or any other supernatural stuff. I was attracted to FK by the
stories, and of course, by the acting skill. (Ger's looks? Well, may that
helped a little...<g>)
> of Buffy. It didn't strike me as very thought provoking---more
> monster-of-the-week.
If it wasn't for the clever dialog, their monster/demon of the week would be
a big yawn for me. And you know, I really don't think their monsters are
particularly scary. What made the FK vampires so menacing was that they
looked pretty much like everyone else, with just a certain edge to them. And
they were much stronger, smarter, and just plain scarier than anything
Buffy's cooked up. Divia is much more frightening than Adam!
> (I'm not helping the cause much am I, Nancy? ....That's what I thought.)
No, you're not, Kyer. But we forgive you. <g>
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:44:45 -0700
From: Sebastian Giovanni <SebastianGiovanni@v.......>
Subject: Ah yes, the "face" thingie...
Oops! I forgot that part---yeah, the infamous
"face thingie" that started on BUFFY and makes the
show(despite many good points) so cheesy(in that
aspect, anyway). The simplest explanation would,
of course, to be to say these vamps are different
from FK vamps, and leave it at that. Also, BUFFY/ANGEL
established that Vampires(their kind) basically were
human bodies possessed by demons, with some memory,
etc., remaining. Only Angel, apparently, has been
given a "second chance", having a soul...but they're
hinting that Spike is redeemable as well, which just may mean they have to
rethink the whole vamps/demons
merger thing. They've already shown that mere humans--
Faith, The Council,The Initiative--can be a helluva
lot WORSE than the "monsters"!
ANGEL is still as close to FK as we get today, though.
Put Angel up against Spike...it's Nick/LaCroix(albeit
younger ones) all over again! (Although Spike said in
the second season that Angel was his "Sire"--Master--
it's already bee established Drusilla Brought him
Across; maybe Angel, as his "grandsire",instructed
him...).
Perhaps the errors on TV will be corrected when they
start making the BUFFY movies for theaters(which is
supposed to happen next year)they can fix up all the
cheesiness, like STAR TREK did from the original
series Klingons to the new,improved versions???
Sebastian
==
"I have seen evil on this earth in all it's
forms..." General Lucius Giovanni(LaCroix)
"Life can cheat death; it will always find a
way!"--Divia Giovanni(LaCroix)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:51:34 -0700
From: Storm Born <the_stormborn@y.......>
Subject: Re: Angel and FK
--- MLCVamp@a....... wrote:
>>While FK may be superior to Angel's series in some
respects<<
I certainly can't improve upon Nancy's response to
this. Just to chip in my own dva kopeks: FK asked
deep, thought-provoking questions and didn't shell out
any easy answers. Angel/Buffy is entertainment, the
TV equivalent of a 'fun read'; FK was literature, in
that it made you think and reflect.
>>True, there's no denying that the character of Angel
owes something to Nick (whose relationship with Nat,
in turn, strongly echoes that of Barnabas Collins and
Julia --<<
Julia and Nat are both trying to find a cure for the
vampires they love. However, Barnabas was totally
unresponsive to Julia, as he believed Maggie was the
reincarnation of his beloved Josette. Nick doesn't
have that baggage, and he does reciprocate Nat's
feelings.
>>OTOH, just as Nick was not the first repentant,
tormented vampire, he was far from the first vampire
detective.<<
I'm not aware of any previous vampire detectives,
offhand (although I'm not aware of the start date of
PN Elrod's Vampire Files). Who are you thinking of,
please?
=====
Molly/StormBorn
FKPagan/Cousin/Seducer/Ravenette/DT/Who's Army Legionnaire
the_stormborn@y.......
Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:07:35 EDT
From: Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Angel and FK
Molly scribbled:
<<I'm not aware of any previous vampire detectives,
offhand (although I'm not aware of the start date of
PN Elrod's Vampire Files). Who are you thinking of,
please?>>
I'm almost positive that Pat's (PN) vampire detective books predate Forever
Knight (or at least the first few). I'm at work on break so I can't dash to my
bookshelves and see<g> There's another series that I can't remember the title
or the author for sure right off hand, but I think the author MAY be Tanith Lee.
Those ***I THINK*** may predate FK (I read them after first watching FK so I
could totally be wrong - I don't ever remember looking at the copyright date).
--Libs
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:24:42 -0500
From: Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: Angel and FK
> Libratsie@a.......
> sure right off hand, but I think the author MAY be Tanith Lee.
> Those ***I THINK*** may predate FK (I read them after first
> watching FK so I could totally be wrong - I don't ever remember
> looking at the copyright date).
Oh! Oh! There's a couple of books called "Blood Hunt" and "Blood Link" by
Lee Killough. In fact, on the back of the book is the blurb that reads
something like, "Before there was Nick Knight, there was Gareth
Mikaelien..."
Although I don't normally read vampire stuff, Nick is very much like Gareth,
who is blond, a San Francisco policeman, and very unhappy about his state of
undeath. These two books were recently in one volume called "Blood Walk."
They are very, very good, and I recommend them highly.
Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:36:21 -0400
From: mclisa@m.......
Subject: Admin: Please watch the civility level
Guys, please watch the civility level in general. Remember that because
person A dislikes a program or actor, that doesn't mean that person B isn't
entitled to like it or him. It is not a problem on this list for someone to
like a program better than FK, or as much. All opinions are accorded equal
respect as long as they are politely phrased.
Also, please remember that McLisa is an Old,Gray Mare and insists on drawing
room manners. <rueful smile>
Cousin McLisa (Lisa McDavid) "That will be Trouble."
mclisa@m.......
Listowner Forkni-l, Fkfic-l, Fkv4s-l
Thanks!
Cousin McLisa (Lisa McDavid) "That will be Trouble."
mclisa@m.......
Listowner Forkni-l, Fkfic-l, Fkv4s-l
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:37:32 -0400
From: mclisa@m.......
Subject: Elrod and FK
Elrod's books do date from several years earlier than FK, except, of course,
for the one she co-wrote with Nigel Bennett. She is and was a fan of FK, as
anyone who ever met her at a con found out.
Cousin McLisa (Lisa McDavid) "That will be Trouble."
mclisa@m.......
Listowner Forkni-l, Fkfic-l, Fkv4s-l
------------------------------
End of FORKNI-L Digest - 8 Jun 2000 to 9 Jun 2000 (#2000-167)
*************************************************************
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