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Logfile LOG9606D Part 11

June 23, 1996

File: "FORKNI-L LOG9606D" Part 11

	Nick & Nat/Janette
	Nick and Nat (fwd)
	Fix and other stuff (was re: Digest) (long)
	Going home at Night?
	need info  (2)
	Top 5 FK episodes: new ranking system  (2)
	help with Nat eps
	Shades of Grey (was Re: Fix and Other Stuff)
	Second season
	Discussions, Friends, and the List

Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:36:46 -0700
From:         "Sharon A. Himmanen" <romana@i.......>
Subject:      Nick & Nat/Janette

My two cents on the issue.

Felicia wrote:

<< Nor do I believe that Nick feels one-tenth of what Nat feels for him.
Part of my "evidence"?  All the other women which Jane made a laundry list
of, whom he *has* honoured in some way, shape, or form with some form of
actual, not imagined, love/sex/bloodletting.  IMO, a bird in the hand is
worth two in the bush. >>

But you're equating love and sex, and in my book they are two very different
things.  I don't necessarily disagree with you in that Nat probably loves
Nick a whole lot more than he loves her, but I think most of that is tied up
in the fact that Nick just doesn't know what he wants.  I do think he loves
her in his own way (because he's self-absorbed and self-serving and he's
placed her up on this pedestle).  IMO, Nat is someone extremely unique in
his life--something tells me Nick hasn't ever really had a long-term
friendship with a mortal woman. I thought his ducking the kiss in "The Fix"
was actually quite appropriate--suddenly his relationship with Nat actually
*could* move to a whole new level, and it had to scare the crap out of both
of them.  Having the two of them hit the sack right away there, I think,
would have been all wrong and I thought they both made the right choice
there.  It's one thing to fall into an infatuation and act out of lust--it's
another to potentially risk a valued friendship, particularly when moving
into uncharted territory.  Plus, I don't agree with the argument that at
that point he thought the condition was permanent--trying to enlist Janette
as a guinea pig and asking Natalie for the drug just in case are proof that
he had doubts.

And subsequent, there are a couple of different ways to look at BMV.  One is
that it's a rebound from "The Fix"--Nick attempting to capture what he had
lost in "The Fix."  Or, he was encouraged in "The Fix" and decided to step
things up with Natalie a bit.  Today I'm 50:50 on that one despite my
intense hatred of that episode.

<< Natalie cannot hope to compete with that, not any time soon at any rate. >>

No she can't. But why should she?  Natalie is an individual just as Janette
is.  This is what I dislike about this debate the most, the implication that
one woman is better than the other.  IMO, they're *both* too good for him
and they both could do a lot better, but that's just me...

<< Natalie has no realistic concept of what it's like to live with Nick's moods,
bear his self-tortured slurs with equanimity, keep him cheerful, *day in and
day out*{snip} By comparison, Nat doesn't know what a tough time with Nick
_is_, merely because she always gets to go home at night!! >>

Now I don't agree.  Janette had that long vampiric relationship with Nick
while he was more or less content to be a vampire (and don't try to convince
me he didn't *always* have a little going on the side.  It lasted so long
because it was the perfect arrangement for him--he got to have his cake and
eat it too).  He's a *very* different person now, and Janette has made it
clear she only tolerates his despair up to a certain point, and by-and-large
did not encourage or support his self-recrimination.

I agree Natalie doesn't have a complete idea, but I think she's got a pretty
good one, and has often gone out of her way to be a voice of reason for him
and put things in perspective, and done it more-or-less patiently too.
Whereas Janette tended to mock him at times, Natalie sometimes was harsh or
stern with him.  I didn't see him turning either woman away in that respect.

And besides which, you make it sound like it's Janette's (or whoever's) sole
mission in life to keep Nick happy, a point I most respectfully disagree with.

<< Janette has practical, real-life experience in dealing with Nick.  Natalie's
still at the casual "live-in-lover" stage by comparison.  She has not yet
proved her possible longevity in a romantic relationship with Nick.  FWIW,
that's about half the reason why my money's on Janette. >>

So then, by this argument, you're suggesting that no one other than Janette
could ever possibly have a long-term relationship of any kind with Nick?  I
don't agree, of course.  I think Natalie's already proven her loyalty and
ability to cope.  Actually the question mark in my mind has always been
about Nick in a long-term relationship with Nat, but I'll leave that for
another post.

I just want to close by asking Felicia a question.  In an ealier post you
very eloquently pointed out all of Nick's faults and how Nat seems to be
investing a lot more into this than Nick, and wondered why anyone who liked
Nat would ever want someone like Nick for her.  Well, I pose the same
question to you regarding Janette.  For all his faults in regard to Natalie,
I think he's been pretty despicable to Janette as well since he tends to
treat her like a whore.  If Janette is a character you respect and admire,
by your own argument why on earth would you want someone like Nick for her?

I know the Knighties are going to jump down my throat for this, and I do
apologize--I do keep in mind that both women have put up with a lot from him
voluntarily so the fault does not lie entirely with him.  I think he could
be nicer to both women, but it's all a big dysfunctional triangle on all sides.


Sharon A. Himmanen * romana@i....... * romana@a.......
NatPack * BotCoS * Keeper of the GopherGame * FoFoD * Jungle Patrol
Nat's B&B          http://members.aol.com/romana/natpage_stuff/natpack.htm
Save FK            http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html
"Dolphins have no use for psychodiagnostic categories."  --Douglas L. Medin
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:39:24 -0400
From:         Mei Wa Kwong <kwongm@g.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick and Nat (fwd)

My apologies, this post got sent before I was finished writing it because
I got a call.  Sorry to everyone.

Woweee Felicia!  Long post!  Don't worry, I'll cut.  :)

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Felicia Bollin wrote:

> Mei-Wa Kwong writes:

> Nick and Nat, in the precinct (Nat is in blue tailored suit). Nick and Nat
>   Nick at Nat *mutually* look at each others'
> lips for a *couple seconds at most* pause, then they *both* break eye contact
> and Nick presses his lips to Nat's *forehead*.

Sorry, need to disagree.  Just rewatched that scene and he is definitely
going for Nat, but she tilts her head.

> Oh, of course.  If my merely platonic friend was almost done away with by a
> crazed rapist, I couldn't possibly look relieved when she escaped that fate.
> ;)  Then why is it, Nick's "attentions" perk up for real only when he sees
> her with Roger;  and why do they cease directly, never to return until,
> inexplicably, the advent of Be My Valentine, nearly a whole year later?

Of course you can feel relief when your friend is safe, but do you
necessarily rain kisses all over her face?  Scene can be interpeted two
ways.  As far as his attentions, mostly likely he didn't realize the
depth of his feelings UNTIL she started dating Roger (he's not called The
Brick for nothing  :)  ).  And his attentions wane because of that scene
were she tilts her head to avoid his kiss.  He doesn't know how she
feels.  Afterall, she's never told him anything.  Which is also one
reason why I think he doesn't hesitate to roam around with other women.
He may love Nat, but he doesn't necessarily know she loves him.  Not
until the Valentine Day's gift where he has an inkling her feelings may
be more than just friendly ones.

As far as the Janette thing, I believe he does love her, in some way, but
I don't think its LOVE.  A lot of it has to do with lust and I think he
cares for her, but I'm sticking to my guns and saying Nat is the one for
him.  And the reasons he doesn't pursue her and sleep with her:  a) once
again, he doesn't know if the feelings are returned, b) if he's wrong, it
would definitely put a crick on their relationship and I think he would
be more willing to go without her in the romantic sense than jeopardize a
friendship, and c) shoot!  if he sleeps with her, he'll kill her which is
why he doesn't sleep with any other mortal women (he chases and looks,
but really doen't touch).

> In such, the analogy of courtly love is not all that new;  some of us have
> been saying for years that Nick puts Nat up on a pedestal *of mortality*,
> very like what he might have done with his liege lord's lady, putting her on
> the pedestal of courtly love.  Either way, it's not how I would like it ;)

You may not like it, but it maybe the way he does things.  :)

Natpacker & Nick&Natpacker

Remember people, lets keep this civilized.
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:55:23 -0400
From:         Ann Lipton <Iocaste@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Fix and other stuff (was re: Digest) (long)

Lillian writes:
I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Is there anyone who isn't morally ambiguous, by
your definition?

I respond:
Well, no.  My point, tho', is that the situation is somewhat more ... stark
if you're a vampire.  Because in that case, you're evil, by definition, no
matter what actions you may take.

To me, several eps of FK revolve around Nick, and the other characters,
searching for grays -- _depending_ on grays because absolutes would mean they
are irrevocably evil -- only to get smacked in the face by the absolutes.

What follows is an analysis of FK, not an opinion on the state of the real

Examples (Major spoilers for several eps not under spoiler protec):

1) Fate Worse Than Death:  In which several characters (modern sequences
only) try to believe that prostitutes are not evil despite their unsavoury
profession, only to discover, in this case at least, the prostitute _is_
evil.  Yes, I know Janette's hardly evil, but I'm also not arguing the
paradigm is perfect -- just that this is the world in which our characters

2) Dying to Know You -- in which Nick, recognizing the ambiguity of his own
character, confesses to a friend, only to have the friend, who cannot accept
the existence of such grayness, commit suicide.

3) I Will Repay, Fever, Dead of Night, Baby Baby:  In which Nick tries to
find a way to create a vampire for good reasons, to make it a good deed, only
to find you can't straddle the line that way -- it's always, for _him_,

I would say, in fact, that FK is a series of situations in which perceptions
of the world in shades of gray crash and conflict with the realities of a
world of (arbitrary) absolutes.

Sorry for taking up so much space in this post and in others for the same
topic, but I wanted to make my position clear.

"Truth had run through my fingers.  Every drop had escaped."
             -- Virginia Woolf
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:52:38 -0400
From:         "Susan M. Garrett" <susang@v.......>
Subject:      Going home at Night?

There MAY be some Human Factor and Last Knight spoilers below.  If there
are, they're MORE than ten lines into this.
Felicia says:
>In contrast, Natalie and Nick have never had a "real" relationship. --By
>comparison, Nat doesn't know what a tough time with Nick _is_,
>merely because she always gets to go home at night!!

Okay, for a moment there, I thought you were defining 'real' as having had
physical intercourse.  If you're defining it as having to spend enermous
amounts of time with a person--yes, Nat has.  She's dealt with Nick's
periods of self-abuse and melancholy, his angst and agony, his heartbreak
and his bullet wounds.  Not 97 years of it of course.  But then, God only
knows that Janette probably had a few diversions during those 97 years ("Oh,
don't worry about him, darling, he's just dinner.  Yes, I know he's not
wearing anything . . . I thought we'd dine in tonight and it was so hot; you
know how I dislike the taste of sweat in my blood . . . .").  Look at it
this way--Nat's had all the bad stuff Janette's had to put up with and very
little of the 'fun.'

Hang on, this is gonna be relatively pointless and all over the highway.
But I'm getting wary of several topics veering into discussion tactics once
used frequently on a now-defunct list that are NOT acceptable on ForKni-L.

In Dark Knight, Nick and Nat are on good terms--friends but nothing more,
she sincerely and honestly wants to help him and he's been making progress.
When Nick goes to see Janette he states that he's been in the city for three
years and there's a conversation that intimates that they haven't seen one
another since Chicago (so Janette has been in Toronto a while, Nick's known
that she's there, but hasn't gone to see her).  From later episodes (what's
said and done) we find out that Nick spent at least two years working with
Nat on a cure before contacting Janette . . . and the only reason he does so
is the 'vampire murder.'

Those are facts.

My interpretation from watching three seasons of FK is that Nick is one of
the most faithless SOB's (that's 'Sons of Belial' of course) in the history
of the world.  To misquote an old song, if he's not near the girl he loves,
he loves the girl that's near.  He's an extremely male vampire and even
though sometimes sucking blood is just feeding, Nick probably chose to feed
from really good looking females as often as possible.

And, on a few occasions, they fed back.

The question being, can a long-lived individual BE entirely faithful to one
mate over time, the whole feeding/sex thing being thrown into it?

If you go by Nick, no.  Nick falls in and out of love as often as he changes
his socks (at least, I HOPE he changes his socks).  His list of infatuations
is fascinating, from flashbacks right through to current day.

And that's part of the problem.  Nick loves things about people.  Or,
rather, he loves who he thinks they are, rather than who they really are.
It's the only way to justify what goes on with Emily Weiss--she
'understands' him (but the woman doesn't believe in vampires, which doesn't
seem to be a stumbling block for Nick).

So, back to the Nick and Janette and Natalie thing.  The answer is, he loves
both of them.  In different ways.  At different times.

In the past, I gather he's been in and out of love with Janette (and in and
out of bed with her even more often).  Janette is sexuality without
guilt--she is sexy and doesn't apologize for it, has complete control over
it (I AM speaking about Janette the vampire), and offers no excuses for
being who and what she is (nor should she!).  One of the first, early list
explanations of why Nick fell in with Janette and, by happenstance, LaCroix,
was that it was a 'bad beer decision.'  I very much doubt that Nick and
Janette had any real interaction before that roll on the sofa (and how much
rolling was actually involved is still a matter of conjecture and
discussion).  Oh, Janette may have seen him from afar and decided that she
wanted 'that one' too, but they weren't doing Bible study together or
anything.  Nick started out with Janette on a purely sexual basis.  He grew
to love her--adoration, regard, protectiveness, jealousy . . . all of that
worked its way into the mix OVER TIME.

Now, is she THE love of his life?  No.  Because I don't think Nick is
capable of having one.  Is Janette someone he'll go back to again and again?
Yes.  Because she's there and available and loves him in return.  In "Last
Act" he seems hurt that Erica was in town and didn't contact him (especially
since they'd had some pretty significant, uh, contact in the past).  Nick
goes back to what he knows best.  It might mean that he uses Janette (like
in "Crazy Love"--but it's my opinion that Janette understands his wanderings
because she doesn't want to be tied down either and for Nick to be calling
her for a 'quickie' means that he's acting like a vampire, which is a GOOD
thing), and abuses her and takes her for granted.  But it does mean that he
pays attention to her when he's good and ready to pay attention to her and
on his own terms.

Nat is an entirely different kettle of fish.  Nat offers him hope and an
ideal of mortality that Janette doesn't.  Where Janette offers him free
physical pleasures (*ahem*), Natalie offers a possibility of spiritual
salvation.  Natalie listens to him.  Natalie doesn't mock him when he tries
to better himself, only when he slacks off (that's Nick's POV--cause if you
think about it, Janette mocks him when he's not being true to his nature and
rewards him when he gets those little vampire-lust twinges . . . one
assumes).  Natalie works with him.  Natalie spends leisure time with him.

And Natalie is a very important part of his Janette-less life for two years.
By Nick's own choice.  She is his conscience.  She represents, to him, the
best that humanity has to offer and that he wants to have.  And he does have
romantic feelings for her.  Or LaCroix never would have bothered going after
her in BMV.  There's an argument that Nick is in love with Nat's mortality
rather than Nat, which is a completely valid concept.  But I also think
there are things about HER that he likes.

Is Nat THE love of Nick's life?  Hell, no!  This guy has a wandering eye.
Let's face it, he has his cake and wants to eat it too.  Nick would be
content with both Nat and Janette in his life in the same place at the same
time (and don't tell me he HASN'T thought about that).

If you ask me, either woman could do better and probably should.  Nick is
abusive and insensitive to BOTH Janette and Natalie.

I did rather like Jamie's assessment of Janette describing Robert to Nick in
"Human Factor," the subtext being 'He's like you . . . only better.'  He
actually tells Janette that sex between them could wait until she's
comfortable with it--that's why he hadn't said anything.  Sharon hit it
right on the head when she said hold on to Robert!  There are not enough men
like that in the world . . . or women for that matter.  In fact if Robert
had met Natalie, this would be a moot conversation.

Do I think Janette will go back to her old ways now that she's turned?  Yes,
to a major extent.  She has to in order to survive.  I don't think she's
sworn off human blood--she's not into guilt and self-punishment.  She
doesn't blame herself for Robert's death.  Being mortal with Robert would
have been nice.  Being dead without Robert would have ended her suffering.
But if she has to live without the lover whom she could love unconditionally
and completely and who could love her right back in the same manner, sure, I
can see her going back into survival mode.  Because she knows that it's
happened once.  And it might just happen again.

Sorry, this IS all over the highway.  Just a bunch of disconnected Sunday
evening thoughts.  If you believe that Janette is the love of Nick's life,
then feel free to do so.  If you believe Nat is the love of Nick's life,
ditto.  Both camps have enough ammunition in their corners to make a good
argument.  And it will remain a topic of discussion unless we actually get a
TV Movie and Nick says, "The love of my life is--"

We won't even begin to go into what the unnamed group has to say about who
the love of Nick's life/unlife might be . . . .

Also, there's a picnic scene in the Canadian episodes from first season.
Nick DOES kiss Nat on the lips in a very friendly fashion and has his hand
on her knee.

And I refuse to say anything about good and evil.  It's all subjective.
Please remember that in your postings.  This is not a list about personal
religious views or philosophy, but it is a list about Forever Knight.
Discussing these topics in view of FK is not only allowed but encouraged.
Discussing them in a combative manner as concepts is something that should
go to e-mail.  We do not condone the abuse of other listmember's beliefs or
non-beliefs, morals, ancestry, or choice in sportswear.

Unless they're lime green, polyester leisure suits.  Ick.

susang@v.......  -- http://www.vitinc.com/~susang
STILL Faithful Ravenette.
"Friends help you move.  Real Friends help you move bodies."
SOS-FK Page at http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:05:35 -0700
From:         Lisa C McLaughlin <lcm@d.......>
Subject:      need info

  I am going to be in Toronto for most of the month of July and
I was wondering if anyone could give me any information on interesting
sights (especially anything related to the show). If you can help me
please mail me privately. Thanks, thanks, thanks :)=

"My Uncle Basil had a nephew he wouldn't speak to for eleven years because
they disagreed over the definition of _allegro con moto_!"

Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:12:05 -0400
From:         Allison Percy <percy91@w.......>
Subject:      Top 5 FK episodes: new ranking system

Brought to you by yet another listmember with her mind in the gutter
(who was egged on by a certain Ravenette):

Top 5 FK Episodes, Ranked by Views of Nick's Chest

5.  "Dance by the Light of the Moon" - Flashbacks in the infamous
    see-through nightie/shift/long shirt/whatever.
4.  "Near Death" - The nightie again.  Since I'm ranking only by
    *chest* views here, I won't comment on the *other* views we
    get.  <g>
3.  "Night in Question" - Good close-ups, but it's hard to get
    excited looking at the chest of a man with a gaping head
    wound.  (BTW, an expert <hi Dotti!> claims this is Ger's chest,
    not a "stunt chest".  Either way, there's no question it's
    Nick's chest.  <g>)
2.  "Killer Instinct" - A brief view of Nick in... briefs.  Or
    boxers.  Anyway, the most skin we ever see.
1.  "Queen of Harps" - In the castle lock-up.  People really should
    lock Nick up in castles more often, 'cuz it does wonders for
    his wardrobe choices.  <g>  Who *was* the wardrobe person for
    this episode?  I want to send this person a big thank-you card.

I'm sure I've left some important scenes out of this list.  Please,
feel free to add to or modify this list!

BTW, in case anyone out there is supremely uninterested in this list,
I am a firm believer in equal-opportunity drooling, so feel free to
come up with a list of your own for the object of your drooling.

If this gets too steamy, I'll move it to SKL, but right now I think
this list needs some silly drivel.  <g>

Besides, I just saw that Nick took a major beating from Sharon H. again
(sheesh, she *really* doesn't like Nick at all, does she??) and this is
my way of giving us Knighties some warm fuzzies.  <bg>

Allison Percy, Knightie etc.                percy91@w.......
    __o     Pedal for Forever Knight!  Support the charity bike tour!
  _`\<,_    E-mail me to find out how to donate and/or join the ride.
 (*)/ (*)     http://assets.wharton.upenn.edu/~percy91/FKtour.html
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:18:13 -0700
From:         Margie Gillis <margieg@e.......>
Subject:      help with Nat eps

First, an apology to anyone who's already seen this.  I sent a post to the
list asking for help with this on the 19th (you remember, the day the black
hole swallowed the list server), and although I know some people got it
because I've gotten a couple of replies (thanks!), I still haven't seen it
drop, so I'm assuming others never got it either.  So, once again:

I need some help from NatPackers and N&NPackers.  I've promised to make some
tapes for someone who's a Nat fan.  She watched the show first season, but
stopped watching somewhere around For I Will Repay.  If you NatPackers could
email me offlist with your favorite eps, that would be great.  Actually,
she's looking for "Nat eps, and any others that really stand out", so you
can include other eps (I just know that if I go strictly by my own judgement
she's going to wind up with all the good Immortal Beloved eps instead...).

I'm assuming she'll probably be happier with second season eps since she
doesn't know any third season characters, but I'll take suggestions from all
three seasons.

Again, my thanks and apologies.

Dark Knightie/Immortal Beloved/Unnamed
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:23:39 -0400
From:         Jane Credland <janes@i.......>
Subject:      Shades of Grey (was Re: Fix and Other Stuff)

At 09:55 PM 6/23/96 -0400, Ann Lipton wrote:

>Well, no.  My point, tho', is that the situation is somewhat more ... stark
>if you're a vampire.  Because in that case, you're evil, by definition, no
>matter what actions you may take.

As you already know, I don't agree with you.  However, we've both stated our
cases pretty clearly, and it's obvious that neither of us are going to be
able to convince the other to change her mind.

I do want to take exception with part of your analysis of FK episodes though.

>1) Fate Worse Than Death:  In which several characters (modern sequences
>only) try to believe that prostitutes are not evil despite their unsavoury
>profession, only to discover, in this case at least, the prostitute _is_

It's not clear from what you stated here whether or not you believe that
prostitutes are inherently evil.  Committing murder is an evil act, and by
that reasoning, there must be evil within the prostitute who did so (sorry
her name slips my mind and I just don't have the energy to dig out my tape
to find out).  Still, one murderous prostitute does not an evil profession
make ... even in the FK universe.

>2) Dying to Know You -- in which Nick, recognizing the ambiguity of his own
>character, confesses to a friend, only to have the friend, who cannot accept
>the existence of such grayness, commit suicide.

I assume you're referring to the puritan in the flashback here.  Nick
confesses to the psychic in the present that he is a vampire, but she is
murdered.  The puritan commits suicide, but Nick does not confess his
vampiric nature to him.  In fact, the main reason that his friend commits
suicide is his inability to reconcile what his eyes have seen with what Nick
has told him, both under hypnosis and in conversation.  I believe Nick's
words (paraphrased) are "I am just a man."

>3) I Will Repay, Fever, Dead of Night, Baby Baby:  In which Nick tries to
>find a way to create a vampire for good reasons, to make it a good deed, only
>to find you can't straddle the line that way -- it's always, for _him_,

Okay, I can buy IWR, Fever and DoN as episodes in which Nick tries to create
a vampire for all the right reasons.  But how what does his bringing Serena
across in Baby, Baby have to do with "good reasons".  He brings her across
because he thinks her request for immortality is a request to become a
vampire.  Bringing someone across because you think they're asking you to do
so is not, IMNSHO, a good reason to do it.  A simple "do you want to be a
vampire?" directed to Serena would have saved them both a lot of heartache.

>I would say, in fact, that FK is a series of situations in which perceptions
>of the world in shades of gray crash and conflict with the realities of a
>world of (arbitrary) absolutes.

Again, this is something on which we will never agree.  The complexities of
the world of FK are what fascinate me.  I see shades of grey in both the
characters and the world in which they live.  Some of the characters,
especially Nick, tend to perceive absolutes within that world, but that does
not mean those absolutes exist.

I am also fascinated by the completely different viewpoints and
interpretations that other people on this list find in Forever Knight.  I've
been on the FK lists for about a year and am still intrigued by the
disagreements that occur.  In a lot of ways, this is a good thing.  It
encourages me to re-watch episodes to try to see what others have found
there.  I don't always find it, but usually enjoy the search.

Jane   (janes@i.......)
Raven ** Immortal Beloved
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.  (Robert Frost)
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:28:30 -0400
From:         Allison Percy <percy91@w.......>
Subject:      Re: need info

Lisa C McLaughlin <lcm@d.......> said:
> I am going to be in Toronto for most of the month of July and
> I was wondering if anyone could give me any information on interesting
> sights (especially anything related to the show). If you can help me
> please mail me privately. Thanks, thanks, thanks :)=

I'm cc'ing this to Lisa privately, but questions like this come up on
FORKNI-L every now and then.  For future reference, write this down:

The Metro Visitors' Association now has an e-mail address at
<mtcvainf@p.......>.  You can also call them at 1-800-363-1990 (this
toll-free number should be good throughout North America).  Hours:  Mon to
Fri 8:30am to 5:00pm, Sat 9:00am to 5:00pm, Sun 9:30am to 5:00pm. Fax:
(416) 203-8625 (24hrs).  Among other things, the MTCVA can make discounted
hotel reservations for you.  If you want to stay in a hotel in which part
of an FK episode (QoH) was filmed and which is also within walking
distance of the Toronto Coroner's office (Nat's office!) and the Metro
Toronto Police gift shop, try the Comfort Hotel on Charles St.  :^)

BTW, there's an FK fan in MTCVA's Information Services Department!  He
just mailed me a big packet of info including a Metro Toronto cycling map.

You can also look at Marg Yamanaka's *wonderful* "Welcome to Toronto!"
guide, which she put together for the Shrewthering crowd in April.
Chapter 9 of this guide is a Forever Knight filming locations list put
together by a bunch of helpful Torontonian fans.  The guide is at:

Keep in mind that this guide was put together for the April trip to see
GWD in "Taming of the Shrew", so it may contain info not relevant to other

Hope that helps!
Allison Percy, chest-watching Knightie       percy91@w.......
    __o     Pedal for Forever Knight!  Support the charity bike tour!
  _`\<,_    E-mail me to find out how to donate and/or join the ride.
 (*)/ (*)     http://assets.wharton.upenn.edu/~percy91/FKtour.html
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:43:08 -0400
From:         Samantha Smiley <MaraJade00@a.......>
Subject:      Second season

Hello everyone!!**waves**
I was wondering if there was anyone with the second season of Forever Knight
that they would be willing to loan me. I am a cousin that has never seen the
second season. I would pay for the shipment back and any damage that might
occure to the tapes when they are in my care(I have three little brothers).
Please contact me offlist.
I would be willing to loan you my copies of the first season. This is not an
advertisment for someone who doesn't have the first or second seasons. Thanks
for reading my message. And now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Jade(MaraJade00@a.......)- aka Samantha Smiley :)
"The only thing to fear is fear itself"- some guy.
"Reality is in the mind of the beholder"- me(used to be beauty is in the eye
of the beholder.)
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:45:11 -0400
From:         Susan Honig <Susankenn@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Top 5 FK episodes: new ranking system

Hi Allison

What about the Last Act Canadian version whose picture you have on your Web

I agee with all your other choices.

Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:47:12 -0400
From:         Marcia Tucker <ScFiMarci@a.......>
Subject:      Discussions, Friends, and the List

Friends, I was regrettably out of town (read: away from a computer) this
whole weekend and missed the aftermath of the Good vs Evil discussion since
my post in response to Amy R.'s post.

I will in no way try to respond to the subsequent posts (big sigh of relief
from listers) but I will say a few things regarding the discussion:

First, one quote from Katya:
>>So, to put the VERY LONG STORY short, my advice would be: Lighten Up, Folks!
There is no answer to the eternal question what is good, and what is not.
It depends on the perspective your looking from.,,<<

This should be the end of the discussion - we are NOT going to agree on this
stuff and that's okay and we're still friends.

and another from Amy, my beloved adversary:
>> If we can all hold our tempers, it's better like this -- really.  At least
we're not reduced to debating the "stunt chest" issue!   :-)  My affection to
you all, even those I'd like to bop over the head with a Nerf bat...
hard.  :-)<<

Amy and I are totally together on this.  (WOW! she says teasingly)  I've
enjoyed the discussion about good and evil immensely, and do not feel at all
that *for the most part* there was heat in this fascinating discourse - but
then somethings did get a little steamed, didn't they?  (er, the Holocaust
reference cut a little low - heck, not one person here was trying to
*justify* anything of the sort whatsover, IMHO.)

We're friends here, ain't we?  Amy and I really disagree strongly here on the
question of absolute good and evil, etc. and the two of us are still quite on
talking terms.  This is a friendly, intellectual sparring match, and I in no
way ever thought of "converting" her to my way of thinking or anyone else.
 We're exploring each others' belief systems in examining the way good/evil
works in the FK universe, which (I acknowledge and hope we agree) is NOT the
real world.  Just based on it, which is why the arguments apply.

That's it.  No soapboxes, no pamphlets, no raising of voices, and I'm not
even getting out a Nerf bat.  ;D   I actually prefer this sort of
intellectual sparring to the "stunt chest" discussions.  (No, make that
*definitely prefer*)  I've even enjoyed the Nick/Nat/Janette discussion even
though it makes me want to hug Felicia for her intrepid efforts (sorry I
wasn't here to jump in more on this, Felicia, but I'd just be me-tooing) and
even though I was shaking my head and groaning at... well, I won't get into
all that!!!  ;D

This should be a discussion, period.  Nobody is going to win.  Nobody can
win, except all of us for being able to discuss matters in a mature way -
*that's* what will enhance us.  But I, for one, am not looking for converts
to my way of thinking.  I'm not looking to convince Amy or anyone else of
anything.  That's not my *purpose* for throwing my peas into the pot as it

So, hug the person on your right... hug the person on your left... and let's
move on.

Amy, loved the Star Trek reference, BTW!   I could go back and spar with you
some more over it, but... nah.  Enough fun for now!

Marcia Tucker / scfimarci@a.......
Dark Knightie / Unnamed / Immortal Beloved
"Eternity is a long time to keep running" - Nick to Vachon, BB
(Why that quote?  First one that popped into my head.)

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