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Logfile LOG9606D Part 10

June 23, 1996

File: "FORKNI-L LOG9606D" Part 10

	SPOILER: LK, AtA, Fran -- Good & Evil (Wicked long)
	Good & Evil in The Show (SPOILER: Francesca)
	Where do we go from here?  (3)
	The Fix & other stuff  (3)
	FK Viewer's Poll again, per request!
	FK Merch Survey again, per request!
	Tia talkin'  An apology about the NEW, NEW Question!
	It's all in their heads -- SPOILER for HF (was Re: Crosses / evil)
	FORKNI-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 - Special issue
	Nick and Nat

Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:00:17 -0400
From:         Gehirn Karies <SoulDebris@a.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: LK, AtA, Fran -- Good & Evil (Wicked long)

> Now, I submit that any being
>who can be determined to be sentient by those standards has a soul.

Not everyone believes every sentient being has a soul.  You can't
assume such a universal scattering of souls.  Some folks believe
they have come into contact with soul-less humans.  Soul-less humans
even who have gone to a house of worship every week, but who learn
nothing, do nothing, care nothing, in terms of spiritual wellness.

> Actions that defy them are,
>by definition, evil.  Saying that a culture *functions* in defiance of
>these absolutes does not make it *good.* Existence is not its own

Many cultures existed before the onslaught of this image of "God"  Their
existence is valid.  The Sun God remained valid to Divia to her dying
breath.  I believe the Sun painting aided our Nickies recovery.

If you are to believe, as in the FK universe that Vampires exist, their
existence is valid.  Their laws, their natural means of survival are valid.
People who do not believe this, such as Liam have dangerous minds.
I don't know why Liam left Toronto without killing Nick, but I did not
approve of his terminating Bridgett, simply because she was something
he did not approve of.  She could have remained alive without killing.

The FK Vampires have evolved, as has our real life society.  FK
Vampires do not have to kill.  Drinking human blood does not make
one evil if no human was harmed in the supplying of the blood.  If we
consume a dairy product, from a source that does not harm its dairy
cows, we may think it perfectly acceptable. There is no difference
between the two IMVHO.

<Nick has correctly identified murder as one of those universal absolutes,
<and he wishes to be free of the hunger which drives him to violate that
<absolute.  This is good.

Nick has chosen to identify murder as one of his absolute no no's.
This is his choice.  Choice is good.  However, Nick is a Homocide
Cop, he may have to *Kill* on the job.

< There is no special
<dispensation for vampirism, any more than there is for having had a bad
<childhood, or bad genes, or a bad-hair day.  Evil is still evil; wrong is
<still wrong; and we are all accountable for ourselves.

Who are we to say that there is no special dispensation
for vampirism?  Is a big fish evil for swallowing an entire family of little
fishes?  Do you have proof in the FK universe that there is no special
dispensation for vampirism?  Even LaCroix himself is unsure of the
existence of higher powers, of creaters, and he has lived two thousand
years.  Faith is faith, not fact.

We are accountable for ourselves.  We live among a certain society,
with laws and rules and rights and wrongs.  Yet there are many wrongs that
are acceptable, and many rights that are inconvieniant, so are stepped
over, unused.

<Vampirism is an especially heavy cross to bear, because of its instinctual
<compulsions, but the cross is still meant to be born, not yielded to.
<That, for me, is the power of Nick's quest.

No, no, no, no, no, no....  To *Nick* vampirism is an especially heavy cross
to bear.  To others, it is what they are.  They have a nature, and they
have a set of defined social laws.  Some FK vampires are quite comfortable
in their nature.

Not every FK vampire or mortal has a quest, some merely exist as they are,
as many of us do.  That Nick has this personally powerful quest makes him
an interesting character to follow.  LaCroix has a quest, Nat has a quest
They both center around Nick.  They are all interesting fictional characters.

>>As to "universal morality" - there ain't no such thing. Who decides this?
<<God.  Certainly not us.  :-)

And are you deciding for all of us that there is a God, and there is then
a "universal morality"?  I don't believe even the STNG people force their
belief in higher powers or "universal morality" onto others.  They have
certain laws and accepted moral codes that cultures examine and choose
whether or not to embrace before joining the federation club.  I don't wish
to anger you Amy, I'm just pointing out that the above is your individual
opinion, which you are entitled to believe in and share with those willing
to embrace it..

In the FK universe the question remains to the Last Knight whether or not
there is a god, whether or not Nick will be damned, whether or not Nat and
Nick will meet in an afterlife.  Nat chose to believe certain things, Nick
chose to believe in Nat's choice.  I believe Nick embraced Nat's faith, not
his own.  He had not seen enough....  He was more worn out than full of
faith, IMVHO. To the very end, he asked for an answer, can he have faith.
He wasn't sure, and he took a chance, based on his trust in Nats judgement.

What would have happened if LaCroix said yes?  "Yes, Nicholas, a vampire
can have faith, a vampire can be redeemed, can be good."  Would he have
jumped for joy and asked to die with Nat to instantly recieve this redemption?
Or would he have said, "Oh, we're not so bad, Nat can join us and still remain
a good being?"  Nick was very confused to the end, and could not make a
sensible decision, he chose a non alternative in my universe.  He chose
the easy way out of a difficult situation.  I feel bad for him that he felt
he had to make a choice at that time.  I am angry at LaCroix for allowing him
to get away with it.

<<I'm not going to say there are Rights and Wrongs.  There are things merely
which either help or hinder the ongoing continuity of our society.

Actually our society has a sytem that has degrees of wrong as far as
murder goes, eh?  First Degree, Premeditated, Manslaughter, Self
Defense, maybe more.

If a Vampire is wounded and starving in a cave and the first animal to
wander in is a human being, and the vampire drinks of that animals life
source, killing it can be self preservation.  It would be honky dory if the
Vampire could drink a little and be on it's way, but a wounded Vampire
may need to kill, need to take more than a mortal could give and survive.
It may be wrong, but is it evil to want to survive at any cost?  I think
survival is instinctive in almost every lifeform.

I think ants are horrid.  I would like to not have ants in my universe.
Last Sunday I moved a thin gravestone that leaned against another.
There was this amazing ant colony.  The stones were the front and back
walls.  These ants had cacoons for their babies.  In minutes they
worked together passing these cacoons, as big as themselves, down
floor by floor and depositing them into the safer colony below the
surface.  I was transfixed.  They were not only interested in their own
survival, but the survival of their people, their children.  Until last
Sunday I felt I had the right to kill every ant I ever saw. I was taught
this as a child. Everyone I know believes it is fact.  Now I'm not so sure.
Those ants were bloody *thoughtful*!

Some one could write a FK movie that goes back to the population of
this planet as a farming experiment for a Vampire society.  They can't
grow humans on their dark planet.  They leave like a dozen Vampires
on the planet, farmers the lot of them, and a whole bunch of human
seeds in lots of different places scattered about.  Different areas will
produce different flavours, like coffee beans.  Then the Vampire
Planet Farm association has a fire and looses the directions and deed
to planet Earth and never come back.  Eventually the Vampires forget
where they came from, the oldest ones dying off, or not wanting to
share the sadness of abandonement, and they let the humans grow
free range, cause its more acceptable to their little group.  And we have
our present day FK world.  Then, in the movie the Vampire planet
catches activity in our skies and comes to reclaim the Earth human farm.
Our FK vampires may just band together and protect us from their
own people.  Because we have become more than prey to them.
(AMPH)  LaCroix and Nick would work together, and Janette would
have fabulous uniforms designed that bring out the blue in their eyes.

And if one of us fell into the TV and became a part of this FK
universe, what would we believe?  FK is fiction and not all of our beliefs
fit within its universe.  A universe which is subject to change without

But there is room in the FK-list universe for all of our beliefs, something
society as a whole forgets from time to time.

Gehirn Karies
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:10:41 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      Good & Evil in The Show (SPOILER: Francesca)

(There is a "Francesca" spoiler.)

Spoiler Space, by George Lucas:

        I felt a great disturbance in the Force...

        as if millions of voices suddenly cried out

        in terror and were suddenly silenced.

        I fear something terrible has happened.

I would like to reiterate a point I've tried to make before.  I think I
can make it more clearly this time by borrowing some points from Cynthia,
who may or may not agree with me.

My belief is that there is an essential moral law built into the universe
in much the same way gravity is.  It does not matter that we are unable to
grasp it, because its existence is not dependent on us.  It does not
matter what we think of it or how we interpret it, because it has an
objective existence like mountains and wind, like flowers and death.
Every being is equally bound by this essential morality, because it is a
condition of existence in every time and place.

Because I believe this, I hold our fictional vampires to much the same
standards that I hold humans -- fictional or real, past or present.

The nature of the show invites this belief to be applied to it.  As I have
pointed out, in "Near Death," the Guide tells Nick that when he steps into
the light -- when he truly dies -- he will be "reclaimed," "as a mortal,"
and his soul "will be judged."  Thus, a vampire soul in FK is equivalent
to a human soul, and will be judged by the same standards.

In "Francesca," whatever is happening to Francesca/Frank is also happening
to Faubert/Tracy, which demonstrates the equivalency of vampire and mortal
souls in two ways.  First, by simply sharing the same fate, be it
reincarnation or ghosthood.  Second, if it is reincarnation, the fact that
a vampire's soul was reincarnated as a human explicitly declares the
equivalency of vampire and human souls.

Beyond the canon of the story, Cynthia pointed out that the very structure
of the show holds up an essential morality.  Nick is a homicide cop -- not
vice, IA, computers, etc., or a private investigator.  Nick has rejected
murder, and his attempt to "repay society for his sins" deals directly
with those sins: murders.  In addition, he does this as an official
representative of the law.  Both are important artistic devices.

I believe that the power of the vampire myth would be significantly
reduced, if not entirely lost, if these fictional creatures were not held
to the same standards we hold ourselves.  Artistically, they would cease
to be an effective metaphor for the human condition.

That is why I interpret FK the way I do.
Would those with the opposite view explain why, within FK, they feel their
interpretation is applicable and artistically effective?

***** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) *****
"Behind the problem of evil, the problem of good./...
tree after tree, inexplicable, yes inexplicable,/
never mind your principles of physics."  -- L. Fargas
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:29:28 PDT
From:         "Leslie I.Plummer" <lplummer@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Where do we go from here?

THANKS for the pep talk, Susan!  I know my the "stamina" cells in my
spine and the "deep roots" in my heels (for diggin in) feel better!

>I'm sorry to see Hugo go, hair notwithstanding, but I hope that just
>because he's left us doesn't mean he's given up on FK.

Never fear on that account.  In a private email w/Hugo about surveys, he
did express his eternal hope for more FK (and willingness to be delighted
<paraphased> when it does occur)!

>We're not on life support, but we will be.  What can a postcard or a letter
>a week take you in time and/or effort.  If we want something WE have to work
>for it.  It will not be handed to us on a platter.  Every hill that's worth
>the climb will always be too steep.

And, don't forget (as we've seen this week alone, on the list): there are
new fans being brought across by SciFi, us, etc. all the time.  They're
re runing third season.  Folks are swapping season tapes with each other.
I, for one, will be finally getting to see first season VERY soon (THANKS
NANCY TAYLOR, Salem OR's FK REDUB ANGEL!) and then, I too, can:

        understand,comment, laugh, cry, comment, query, agree, comment,
        disagree, and love

ALL the discussions about various aspects of those eps.  And, the list
will be filled with new insights, old blunders (blundered yet again), and so
forth, as we all enjoy this merry-go-round of syndication!

And, then.... before we know it..... there WILL be a new FK announced &
we'll be holding our water trying to contain our excitment for a new FK!

Don't anyone doubt it for a minute!

I, for one, look forward to catching up on the old eps, stumbling in my
excitment to share it w/y'all during this year; while collating survey
responses, donating to "good" causes, getting to know all of you, etc.
I can wait.  I can work.  I can persist!  We can enjoy this time!
Cause it's OURS!

* -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- *
| Leslie  (lplummer@i.......)   ***FOREVER MEANS...FOREVER!!!*** |
* N&NPacker: "In Love and Faith There is Forever"   Knightie, too!    *
| Sent in FK surveys?   Not too late! GoTo SOS-FK or MrHappy Webpages!|
* -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- *
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:37:28 PDT
From:         "Leslie I.Plummer" <lplummer@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Where do we go from here?

Margie (treeleaf) wrote, in comparison to possible FK merchandise:

>Star Trek had neat stuff like little models of the Enterprise and phasers
>and commumicators.  That kind of stuff is good to have around, 'cause it
>catches people's eye and can start conversation.

<lecherous giggle> Hmmm... I can picture it now:

        What shall HALLMARK produce as the first Forever Knight Christmas
        Ornament for 1998?

(I remember getting the Enterprise ornament, with lights and sound, two
years ago!)

>Does TVSHOWSTUFF do stuff like that, or should we write directly to
>SONY about it?

Write to both!  TVSHOWstuff, by the way, is very open to suggestions.
They market all sorts of stuff... that's why it's called "stuff"!

>a model of the green Caddy with a ragtop and fins

I think we have a winner here for the first (!) Hallmark FK ornament!

With Nick inside... the Trunk!  I'd put it on my tree!

(p.s. Thx! Fred/Crescendo!... I just got my CD recently and fell on
the floor laughing to see the pic of Nick in the trunk, BEHIND the CD!)

* -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- *
| Leslie  (lplummer@i.......)   ***FOREVER MEANS...FOREVER!!!*** |
* N&NPacker: "In Love and Faith There is Forever"   Knightie, too!    *
| Sent in FK surveys?   Not too late! GoTo SOS-FK or MrHappy Webpages!|
* -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- * -- *
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:43:02 -0700
From:         Torrey <neva@i.......>
Subject:      Re: The Fix & other stuff

At 06:43 PM 6/23/96 -0400, Ann wrote:

>I don't really see the b&w world thing as a flaw.  See, my take is this:  We
>have morally ambiguous characters living in a place where the rules are hard
>and fast --

 Hmmm interesting response. What do you mean by " morally ambiguous

"Dona" Torrey     <neva@i.......>
 Mikies   SKL  V-Loop
"No. But her chances aren't good. Her surgeon was a falcon." Nick
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:05:12 -0400
From:         Ann Lipton <Iocaste@a.......>
Subject:      Re: The Fix & other stuff

"Dona" Torrey writes:
What do you mean by " morally ambiguous characters"?

I respond:
Morally ambiguous means not all good and not all bad.  Even LC, who I would
argue is the most evil of our regular vampires, is very very sympathetic at
times and has altruistic impulses.

So if, I ask, it is evil merely to exist, how do you reconcile that with
having goodness in you?

Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:42:20 PDT
From:         "Leslie I.Plummer" <lplummer@i.......>
Subject:      FK Viewer's Poll again, per request!

FOREVER KNIGHT VIEWERS POLL                               5/24/96
===========================                               =======
Please take a moment to answer these questions. The more responses,
the more compelling our case becomes!  LURKERS, I'm counting on you
to participate, too!  International responses GREATLY welcomed!
In consideration of "striking while the iron is hot", please
send your response to me privately (lplummer@i.......).

1)  On what (non-SciFi) TV station(s)/channels do you/did you view
    Forever Knight?  Please include:
      --station name & channel/frequency
      --city/state/country from which station originates
      --owner, company name, contact
      --station address & telephone number (if you can look it up)
      --what type of station (independent, network (which?),
        cable, etc.)

2)  On what day/time do/did you watch FK on these stations?
3)  Have you ever contacted your station about FK? Any other show?
4)  Do you know if the stations will continue to run FK?  How long?
5)  Do you know if the stations have email or a website?  If so,
    what are they?
6)  Is Cable TV service provided in your area?  Pls provide company
    name/address info, as above.
7)  Does your area Cable TV company provide SciFi Channel?
    When will it?
8)  Do you have cable service?
9)  Do you pick up FK via satellite?  Please provide info.

10)  In what city/state/country do you live & how far is it to the
     station/provider on which you view FK?
11)  How long have you been viewing Forever Knight (what season)?
12)  Do you currently swap tapes w/other viewers (indicates desire
     to see other seasons, etc.)?
13)  How old are you?  What gender?  What occupation (generally)?

NEW SHOW (i.e. movie, etc.) QUERIES:
14) Would you be satisfied for a new FK show/movie to have the same
    characters, but different actors portraying them?
15) If not, which first 5+ actors would you ABSOLUTELY have to have
    back for you to view/support the new season? (pls list in order,
    1=most 5=least)
16) Would you view/support a new FK (movie, etc) if same characters
    were set in another city?

THANKS! Please send this to me ASAP, either by email:
        Subject= FK TV Survey
or snail mail:
        11980-J Little Patuxent Pkwy, Columbia, MD 21044.

Please gather your station's info from the phone book, etc. if you
can.  This will greatly aid the compilation of data. I plan to have early
returns compiled for inclusion on the FK homepage (web god/des(ses)
permitting) by July 1, though I will continue to compile them through 1996!

Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:43:19 PDT
From:         "Leslie I.Plummer" <lplummer@i.......>
Subject:      FK Merch Survey again, per request!

Forever Knight is VASTLY under promoted & not merchandise-"exploited"
in any means.  PTW (powers that were) didn't see this one, & it is
our RIGHT, RESPONSIBILIY, and OPPORTUNITY to indicate what we want
in the way of Forever Knight merchandise (for the 1st three seasons
& any FK shows/movies which come along).

FOREVER KNIGHT MERCHANDISE SURVEY                              5/19/96
=================================                              =======
Please take a moment to answer these questions.  WHEN FK reincarnates
into another movie, etc., the backer(s) will want to know there are
accompanying income resources (i.e. merchandising).  This is your
chance to indicate what you want & don't want!  LURKERS, pls come out
for this survey, too.  Please copy this survey & hand out to
non-Internet FK friends & to newbies!  As always, the more responses,
the more compelling an argument to get what we want!

PLS print this & give copies to your non-Internet FK friends. They can
snailmail theirs to the address below. Pls send NOW!

1)  Would you purchase the following? How much would you pay (US$)?
     -- coffee mug? (black w/FK logo? another design? another color?)
     -- comic books? (would they have to be in the FK "universe"?)
     -- novels? (would they have to be in the FK "universe"?)
     -- fanzines?
     -- filkbooks?
     -- original music books/sheets?
     -- The Raven/club stuff? (what?)
     -- more music by Fred? (FK only?  other Fred stuff?)
     -- trading cards w/characters photos & info
     -- technical books from the sets? scripts?
     -- FK fantasy art?  (what media?) (mail order?)
     -- FK t-shirts (what on it?  what colors?)
     -- FK halloween costuming? masks? (what? who?)
     -- posters?  (what shots? what groupings?)
     -- Ribena?
     -- FK vamp stuff? (what?)

2)  Would you want to see "action figures" or is that too juvenile? Is
    this too adult a market?  If you like the idea, pls specify what
    "attributes" you'd like your favorite to have (i.e. costume,
    color, hair(!!!), carrying what, etc.)?

3)  Do you know where you can get Ribena locally?  Pls indicate where
    & if you'd like to get it (retail or mail order).

4)  How about FK chocolate?
        -- what shape?
        -- what type of choclate? (milk, dark, semi, Belgian, etc.)
        -- would you pay extra for it to be a good quality chocolate?
        -- how much/pound would you pay (in US$)

5)  Would you buy different factions' FK chocolate?  If so, please
    indicate what flavor or filling would be most appropriate for
    each group (i.e. what filling for cousins, perkolators, etc.)
6)  Have you found Fred's CD in local music stores?  Have you asked
    for it by name?  What stores/what cities?  Will they get it
    for you?
7)  What else can we market?

8)  How old are you?  What gender?  What profession (general)?
9)  In what city/state/country do you live?
10) Do you belive in purchasing by way of credit cards?
11) Do you order items through the mail?  Internet?
12) Pls indicate name/alias/email preference for tabulation only.

Pls send responses to me off-list (in consideration of list
traffic levels) by either email:
        lplummer@i....... (subject: FK Merch Survey)
or snailmail:
        11980-J Little Patuxent Pkwy, Columbia, MD 21044 USA

I will compile all responses & see if website can/wants to
post analysis.  Hope to post early return compilations by July 1;
then will add new submissions to survey again, later.  Please
contact me off-list if you have any questions about this survey.
I am happy to answer.

Please RSVP soonest.  Thanks for your interest in Forever Knight!
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:06:47 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Where do we go from here?

Margie wrote:

>Star Trek had neat stuff like little models of the Enterprise and phasers
>and commumicators.  That kind of stuff is good to have around, 'cause it
>catches people's eye and can start conversation.  Does TVSHOWSTUFF do stuff
>like that, or should we write directly to SONY about it?

TV ShowStuff doesn't do any FK stuff at the moment.  What they're trying to
do now is convince Sony to license the rights to FK so that they (TV
ShowStuff) can make and sell FK stuff.  Sony is saying that it's  not worth
their time and effort to sell the merchandizing license to FK. We need to
write to TV ShowStuff AND to Sony to show them them they *will* make money
on FK.

> I was thinking
>of a copy of Nick's detective badge, a radio microphone with the letters,
>CERK, a model of a piano with a candelabra on it, and of course, amodel of
>a green Caddy with a ragtop and fins (would GM have to get in on that?).

Write to TV ShowStuff (see my sig) and to Sony. Tell them what you want and
are willing to buy.

****Wicked Cousin Tippi****
HEY!  Want FK stuff?  Sony needs to know that you want it! Contact
Anne at TV_ShowStuff@p....... and TELL her NOW! :)
"Poetry can be so deceiving." - LC in Baby, Baby
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:02:50 -0400
From:         Joy Davis <Rjoi@a.......>
Subject:      Tia talkin'  An apology about the NEW, NEW Question!

    Dear Anyone reading this!
I was informed that CAPITALIZATION is shouting. I had no idea!!
I'm sorry, but what do you expect from a Jr High Schooler?
Sorry. No offense taken I hope!
Well, thanks to you all!  And to Diane!
I thank especially The List Mommy! (For this wonderful list!)

Later! Peace!
Cousin of the Knight~Cousin (an aquired taste!)
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:03:11 -0400
From:         Joy Davis <Rjoi@a.......>
Subject:      Re: The Fix & other stuff

Hi All!

Ann wrote:
>>Aack ... doesn't anyone agree with me that on FK, merely the state of being
a vampire means you're evil?

To me, the ultimate proof's in the crosses.  As long as any vampire is
repelled by crosses, that means that God (on the show) definitively finds
them evil.  And Nick is repelled by crosses always, even if it does get a
little better over time.>>

I would have to agree with this for the show's premise (yes Ann some of us do
agree with you!)  That is exactly what FK is trying to tell us.  Being a vamp
is a state not acceptable to God and Nick is trying to go back and become
human so to find this state of grace.

As for the whole debate of Good Vs Evil, that is subject to each individua'ls
perceptions and beliefs.  I only state what I believe is the show's premise.
(So please *don't* assume I'm stating any real life values here and reply to
what I did not mean to say!)

Member UF~~Cousin of the Knight
Dark Knightie~~Cousin (it's an aquired taste)
enJOYing an endless Forever Knight...
*You will always be mine* LC to Nick
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:11:19 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      Re: It's all in their heads -- SPOILER for HF (was Re: Crosses /

TJ wrote:

>SPOILERS FOR HUMAN FACTOR AHEAD -- is this still under protection?

>mine, who said, "You know, I thought it was pretty interesting that
>Jeanette convinced herself she was mortal."  It never even occured
>to her that Jeanette might really BE mortal.  I arrived at FKSPOILR
>right about this time.  Did we discuss that possiblity?

I joined fkspoilr around that time, too, and that was my take on Human
Factor, as well.  I had believed that she was *mostly mortal* but still a
very weak vampire.  That's why I thought Nick hadn't been able to sense her
mortality.  (But then I watched some first and second season eps where he
doesn't seem to always know when someone is or isn't alive.  So I don't know.)

My thoughts still linger along those lines (that the vampire had never quite
left her) but I am in the very, very slim minority. ;)

****Wicked Cousin Tippi****
HEY!  Want FK stuff?  Sony needs to know that you want it! Contact
Anne at TV_ShowStuff@p....... and TELL her NOW! :)
"Poetry can be so deceiving." - LC in Baby, Baby
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:52:45 -0400
From:         Lillian Feden <feden@m.......>
Subject:      Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 23 Jun 1996 - Special issue

Ann Lipton writes:

>Morally ambiguous means not all good and not all bad.  Even LC, who I would
>argue is the most evil of our regular vampires, is very very sympathetic at
>times and has altruistic impulses.

I'm sorry, I'm confused.  Is there anyone who isn't morally ambiguous, by
your definition?

feden@m.......                      http://www.mcs.com/~feden
Pragmatic Knightie; IB; MBDtK; PGEB (hormones took over)
Fourth L on the right, contemplating the existence of intelligent
  life in the broadcast executive offices
Date:         Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:19:57 -0400
From:         Mei Wa Kwong <kwongm@g.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick and Nat

Woweee Felicia!  Long post!  Don't worry, I'll cut.  :)

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Felicia Bollin wrote:

> Mei-Wa Kwong writes:

> Nick and Nat, in the precinct (Nat is in blue tailored suit). Nick and Nat
>   Nick at Nat *mutually* look at each others'
> lips for a *couple seconds at most* pause, then they *both* break eye contact
> and Nick presses his lips to Nat's *forehead*.

Sorry, need to disagree.  Just rewatched that scene and he is definitely
going for Nat, but she tilts her head.

> Oh, of course.  If my merely platonic friend was almost done away with by a
> crazed rapist, I couldn't possibly look relieved when she escaped that fate.
> ;)  Then why is it, Nick's "attentions" perk up for real only when he sees
> her with Roger;  and why do they cease directly, never to return until,
> inexplicably, the advent of Be My Valentine, nearly a whole year later?

Of course you can feel relief when your friend is safe, but do you
necessarily rain kisses all over her face?  Scene can be interpeted two
ways.  As far as his attentions, mostly likely he didn't realize the
depth of his feelings UNTIL she started dating Roger (he's not called The
Brick for nothing  :)  ).  And his attentions wane because of that scene
were she tilts her head to avoid his kiss.  He doesn't know how she
feels.  Afterall, she's never told him anything.  Which is also one
reason why I think he doesn't hesitate to roam around with other women.
He may love Nat, but he doesn't necessarily know she loves him.  Not
until the Valentine Day's gift where he has an inkling her feelings may
be more than just friendly ones.

As far as the Janette thing, I believe he does love her, in some way, but
I don't think its LOVE.  A lot of it has to do with lust and I think he
cares yG\=FB=DB

> I am not opposed to Nick and Nat having feelings for each other.  I just do
> not believe that they are "in luv".  Nor do I believe that they are likely to
> fall in love any time soon.  Nor do I believe that Nick feels one-tenth of
> what Nat feels for him.  Part of my "evidence"?  All the other women which
> Jane made a laundry list of, whom he *has* honoured in some way, shape, or
> form with some form of actual, not imagined, love/sex/bloodletting.  IMO, a
> bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
> Amy R. said that, when it comes to Nick, she would rather be neglected
> like Nat than used like Janette.  Now I, myself, see *nothing* romantic about
> courtly love.  It makes me manic ;)  I can't stand stories in which the man
> puts the woman up on a pedestal (one can "look but not touch", as the case
> may be;  who wants a guy who won't touch you because you're too 'pure' and
> 'wonderful' for him to sully your body with his uncouth hands?  I'd rather
> have the touching, thankyouverymuch <VBG>).  Courtly love is about the
> socially inferior male adoring an unattainable, i.e. usually married or
> betrothed female from the peerage from afar, yes?.  IMO, I see nothing
> romantic about being "admired" from afar.  Nick, as someone said to me
> recently, is not meant to be some vampiric version of Vincent from "BatB", a
> poetry-spouting eunuch (no offense to "Beast" fans, I meant that
> descriptively!):  He is, as the "laundry list" showed, a _highly sexual_
> being.
> In such, the analogy of courtly love is not all that new;  some of us have
> been saying for years that Nick puts Nat up on a pedestal *of mortality*,
> very like what he might have done with his liege lord's lady, putting her on
> the pedestal of courtly love.  Either way, it's not how I would like it ;=
> As Laurie CF said, IMO there has been about one solid year in which we could
> entertain the concept of Nick and Nat as a somewhat typical couple.  In
> contrast, we know that Nick *has* had a relationship with Janette.  They were
> together for nearly a century.  Natalie cannot hope to compete with that, not
> any time soon at any rate.  In some respects I agree with Amy:  Janette and
> Nick share a romantic past and potential.  (I would also add "_sometimes_ a
> present", but surprisingly enough, not as often as you might expect from an
> IB ;) ).  We also know that Nick and Janette *could*, in probability, share a
> future, because they *have* shared a past, and insofar as by mortal
> standards, they had an excellent relationship that lasted longer than many
> mortal lifespans.  (Ask me how I know it was excellent;  cf.  "PotM".  Nick
> didn't look like he was any too happy about ending it <EG>)  Janette has
> proven that in the past, she can make a relationship with Nick work.  And he,
> at least, is quite often nothing loath when it comes to the vampiric/sexual
> aspect.  This seems, IMO, at least a pretty good groundwork for a future, if
> I may be allowed one sweeping generalization ;)  Whatever I may think about
> the current level and condition of their relationship aside, ('cause I want
> to go to sleep and so do y'all <G>), Nick and Janette have a precedent.
> In contrast, Natalie and Nick have never had a "real" relationship.  So
> (hopefully) no-one will argue with me;  what I mean by "real", is that
> Natalie has no realistic concept of what it's like to live with Nick's moods,
> bear his self-tortured slurs with equanimity, keep him cheerful, *day in and
> day out*, for hours and hours a day, in the manner that Janette did for *over
> 97 years*.  By comparison, Nat doesn't know what a tough time with Nick _is_,
> merely because she always gets to go home at night!!
> Janette has practical, real-life experience in dealing with Nick.  Natalie's
> still at the casual "live-in-lover" stage by comparison.  She has not yet
> proved her possible longevity in a romantic relationship with Nick.  FWIW,
> that's about half the reason why my money's on Janette.
> Felicia Bollin
> AriCon@a.......
> Ravenette*Immortal Beloved*MBDtK

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