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Logfile LOG9606C Part 17

June 19, 1996

File: "FORKNI-L LOG9606C" Part 17

	LIST STUFF: Help When Needed
	Blood  (2)
	Spolers: Blackwing
	FK Merchandise/Newsgroups
	Cousin War Enlistment still open
	Blackwing, etc.
	mystery fan club address
	Nick & Nat
	Fantasy FK
	That "Nature of Morality" Thing
	Quest vs. Solution
	Ger's Outer Limits Ep
	SOSFK: The Page...
	this is IMPORTANT!!! really!
	More Nick and Redemption
	good Nat eps
	Off Topic...sort of (The Lisa Thang)
	Killing, etc.: Sandra's post
	Blackwing script
	Nick's adjustment as a vampire
	Killing - sipping - choices

Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:26:17 -0700
From:         [Name removed by request]
Subject:      Re: LIST STUFF: Help When Needed

> Don Fasig, List Janitor

i'm sorry but i have a problem with this. No offense to janitors, who are
so valuable to society, but Donnie is not a janitor. Nor is he:

> More like Hercules charged with cleaning the Augean stables

(his words. Well, actually Donnie as Hercules ain't a bad comparision).
But i must insist, however much trouble may be stirred, however annoying
i may become, that our Donnie does not run after us, picking up trash,
sweeping up messes. He is, rather, List Gardener, Full of Grace (any
list owner/maintainer is divine, no exception. They have to be, to keep
this thing running properly. Only Gods can keep those hamsters alive),
Tender of forkni-l and fkfic-l, weeding out the harmful, bothersome
accounts, working magic upon the sickly ones.

Let's bat some sense into The Divine List Shepherd and Horticulturist.
<bat, bat>


[Name removed by request]

All I have is what I might have been - Gavin Friday
How can you trust someone who bleeds for 7 days and doesn't die? -BGW
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:46:08 PST
From:         June Russell <Kat@g.......>
Subject:      Re: Blood

Cousin Lisa asked:
:Does anyone -- Kat? -- know if the pressure in the neck is different?

The actual pressure between the carotid in the neck and the femoral in the
thigh would be approximately the same. The difference is in flow. With
increasing cross-sectional diameter of the vessel, pressure remaining the
same, you get a proportional increase in the flow. So for a smaller vessel,
such as the carotid the flow is less than in the femoral. Now if you make a
tiny hole, either way you'll get the same amount. However, the shear factor
may enlarge the hole, making the flow rate out of the vessel greater. But if
the hole remains the same size, it won't make that much difference with
 which you poke holes.

In terms of hole poking I have seen: when we do an arterial stick for blood
gases the femoral stick fills up a little faster than the radial stick, but
not that much different. We don't like doing femoral sticks, though because
it's harder to stop the bleeding afterwards (harder to push at the
appropriate spot) and if there is a clot where you did it, you might lose a
leg with the femoral but there is collateral circulation with the radial
artery (from back flow with the ulnar).

I don't have the more detailed books here at home to tell you actual
pressures (besides which, I'm not a cardiologist, so I don't deal with that
very often. Even my books at the office might not have it.)

Well, that was certainly more than *I* would normally want to know.


Kat ( June Russell )
pacifier.com!grendal!kat    kat@g.......
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:56:17 -0600
From:         "Elena Villafuerte H." <evilla@u.......>
Subject:      Re: Spolers: Blackwing

On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Judith Freudenthal wrote:

> Dottie, I do have to agree with your post disagreeing with mine.
> <<I think the fact that he didn't immediately say "Look, I'm mortal...let's
> hit the bed" speaks volumes for the way he feels about Nat.  It goes deeper
> than just the physical, he wanted to share the sun (which means the world to
> him) with here more than just sharing his body>>
> Why didn't they do it in the Fix?  I suppose the answer was that he was
> waiting to do it properly and was overwhelmed by the fact that he could go
> out in the sun.  He did express his joy to Nat when he first when out into
> the sun (right after her treatment).

Excuse me...
I *have* to say something. I agree that perhaps Nick's feelings for Nat
go deeper than just the physical thing. However, it's not like they have
all the time in the world to do things properly, is it? I mean, if Nat
has been longing for Nick and viceversa for ages, and then he gets to
have a chance to "hit the bed" with her (I looove the expression), but
doesn't do it because he's waiting to do it properly (candles and dinner
and wine and all), then what always happens is he reverts to the vampire
condition and can't do it anymore.
So, we've seen Nick make love to Marian and I don't really know how many
others (if there have been others, I've only had a chance to see FK after
they aired BB SNIFFF!!!) but never to Nat . OK, OK, so maybe he's cured
and not a vampire anymore. OK, let's take a walk in the sun and se
the flowers and have champagne and chocolate cake. BUT just in case, if I
was Nat, I'd get him into bed first and ask the questions later!

But then, maybe I'm just a little less spiritual than what love with a
vampire requires :)

Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:35:06 +6
From:         Don Fasig <phase3@g.......>
Subject:      Re: FK Merchandise/Newsgroups

> Also has someone posted Tippi's letter to the newgroup??/ I would if I
> knew how.


Don Fasig     ---,-<@
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:34:00 EDT
From:         Lisa McDavid <D020214@v.......>
Subject:      Cousin War Enlistment still open

For some strange reason, which may be entirely chance, I've been having
mailer problems recently.

If you sent me private email asking to be on the Cousins Loop and
stating your intention to particpate as a Cousin in the upcoming war,
and have *not* received an acknowledgement or a post from the Loop,
please write to me again.

Enlistment is still open for Cousins who wish to participate. Note
that you join a faction by declaring yourself a member, so if you're
new and you think you'd like to support LaCroix in the war, welcome
to the right side. If you've been here and have come to your senses,
welcome to the right side. <evil grin>

Cousin Lisa -- "That will be trouble."
Chief Watcher for Cats, McGregor
Lisa McDavid
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:52:52 -0700
From:         Valery King <kingv@u.......>
Subject:      Re: *Blackwing, etc.*

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, esalmas wrote:

> >However, Ger does *just fine* portraying passion while clothed though.
> And then some -- he could give lessons to most actors.

Where can I sign up for these master classes????

Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:17:43 E
From:         Debra Ann Fiorini <fiorini@m.......>
Subject:      Re: Blackwing

Katrinka said:
>oh btw. i think nat and nick did have sex during the fix. that would
>explain why she got so upset when he went back to his vampire ways.

I don't think so.  When did they find the time??
He was taking her to her apt., then she decided to go back to work
instead (talk about dedicated, after spending the night at work,
she goes back to spend the day there too), and he goes off to
investigate the case he wasn't supposed to be working on.
They never made it to Nat's place, and when Nick went home, he
entered alone and found LC there.
Later, he was missing and when Nat caught up with him, he was
back to being a vampire.

Also, I don't remember her as being upset he went back to
being a vampire.  When he showed her his fangs at the end
(that sounds strange <g>), she smiled at him with relief.
She *was* upset when she thought he was turning into a

Debra Ann
Dark Knightie * N&NPacker
Guenvier@a.......  or  fiorini@a.......
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:00:03 -0700
From:         Valery King <kingv@u.......>
Subject:      mystery fan club address

In OnSat, my satellite tv guide, there was a question in the "Polly's TV
Chatter" column:

Q. Last night I saw what I assume to be the last show of "Forever
Knight." Please say it isn't so. How long has it been in production and
where may I write to the talented cast? --Joan Bear, Ashland, OR

A. "Forever Knight" was first telecast on May 7, 1992 on CBS during the
1992-93 season and was rerun the following year. It then moved to
syndication with new episodes. Rumor has it that the series will be out
of production, though you may see reruns in syndication. For further
information write to: "Forever Knight" Fan Club, P.O. Box 7487, Burbank,
CA. 91510.

The word of the cancellation is finally trickling out to the
internet-deprived, which is good, but, well, gang, now *I* have a
question: does anyone recognize this Burbank address????? The FKFC is
located in Boston, not Burbank; Deb's and Nigel's fan clubs are in
California, but in the northern not the southern part. So where did this
P.O. box come from? Is this some "shadow" corporate organization I don't
know about?

I'm thinking of writing to this address and see what happens; in the
meantime, any information would be appreciated.

Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:50:06 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      Nick & Nat

From:    Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
>But falling in love _is_ a process.  It's hard to pinpoint when it starts,
>and it never has to end.  Oooh, I'm sorry, I'm getting sooo romantic!

My premise, which recently took two installments on fkspoilr, is that Nick
was never actually "in love" with Natalie, though he was *falling* "in love"
with her through third season.

>Ob unromantic question - What is N&Nerism?

"N&Nerism" is my abbreviation for "Nick&Natpackerism."  :-)

>Why didn't they do it in the Fix?  I suppose the answer was that he was
>waiting to do it properly and....

There are better explanations.  One of which is the above, that Nick was
not in love with Nat at the time of The Fix.  As the IBs would no doubt
point out, Janette is the one he runs to with news of his cure.

Another explanation, however, is that The Fix immediately follows BMV, in
which LC reminds Nick that he will kill any mortal woman Nick truly loves.
Nick has many faults, but gratuitously exposing Natalie to mortal danger
is not one of them.  Further, as BMV just occurred, Nick would still
believe he'd managed to successfully wipe Nat's memories of that night and
their encounter -- in other words, following BMV, whatever Nick's own
feelings, he would think that Nat had no basis from which to consider a
romantic relationship with him.

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
(Keeper of the Light Cousin FAQ: email me for a copy.)
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:53:27 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      Fantasy FK

>>That doesn't mean they aren't subject to physical laws.
>Why not?  What "physical laws" is a magician in a fantasy story using?

Well, that depends on which fantasy story you're reading!  :-) Sometimes
it is a grant of power from the gods; sometimes it is the force of the
individual's will; sometimes it involves calling upon spirits; sometimes
it is a family trait, inherited from a supernatural ancestor, granted by
gods, or resembling scientific psychic abilities.  Piers Anthony's Phaze
was as much science fiction as his Proton, but changing the fundamental
physical laws of the fantasy world has served many authors.  Changing
those laws does not mean discarding the necessity for laws.

What I think was being said about FK was that its fantastic interpretation
has as much (or as little) continuity as its scientific one.  If we
interpret the vampire's aversion to holy objects as Nick did in FIHS ("We
are creatures of the Darkness, and they represent the One, True Light")
instead of using the sci-fi "projected-psychic energy of faith"
interpretation, then we have established a rule of FK, which must remain
consistent throughout the interpretation.  For example, if someone
worshipped evil, then, under the sci-fi interpretation, their "holy"
objects would still repulse vampires through the projected energy of
faith.  Under the fantasy interpretation, the object would not repulse a
vampire, because it represents the wrong pole of the metaphysical

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
Knightie * Light Cousin * Fleur-Booster * (Im)Mortal Beloved
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:07:18 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      That "Nature of Morality" Thing

>From:    Marcia Tucker <ScFiMarci@a.......>
>Subject: Rational Dark Knighties/Cousins!

<a Bright and Shiny Knightie waves at a Dark one> Hi, Marcia!  :-)

>Let me just begin by saying that Cousins and Dark Knighties are rational in
>our own delightful way - mainly from the vampire's perspective, for after
>all, Nick and LaCroix are vampires and not "subject to mortal mores."

Golly, it's been what -- a month? -- since the last time this argument
occurred on list?  :-) Let me identify it for what it is then:  The Return
of the "Nature of Good and Evil" Discussion!  When last we met, I was
pushing hard for Absolute Morality, and Lisa Prince, Marcia, Laurie and
others thought I was stark, raving mad.  :-)

The argument that there is a "vampire's perspective," and that this
perspective naturally differs from that of other sentient beings, is one
of rampant cultural relativism.  I see no real difference between it and
the silly idea that there is a proper "woman's persepective" or "Black
perspective" or "Canadian perspective" or "adolescent perspective."

"But all of those perspectives are human," you are probably thinking.  So?
I'm arguing on two fronts here, and the first one is that Nick's perspective
is as validly "vampiric" as LC's.

The second front is where Janette refers to "mortal mores."  She then, and
LC usually, believe they are indeed unfettered by mortal morality.  Nick
(and I) however, believe that there is only one morality, and it applies
to all thinking beings.  Murder is simply wrong.  LC can't excuse what he
did in "Cherry Blossoms" by saying that he's a vampire.  It was murder,
and it was wrong.  Torture is simply wrong.  LC can't excuse what he did
(so I'm told) in "Dead Air" by saying he's a vampire.  It was torture, and
it was wrong.

Evil is evil, and being a vampire doesn't excuse you for its commission.
Some things are, or ought to be, engraved on the souls of all -- and
vampires lose neither their human soul nor their human conscience when
they come across (though an interesting C&C discussion could be inserted

>I see the only obstacles to redemption for a vampire to be <snip> 2)
>excesses as a vampire, and the Enforcers would take care of one first.

The Enforcers are only interested in things that threaten the secret of
the Community, as far as I know.  Spilling the beans about vampirism is
not a mortal sin to anyone but the Enforcers.

>vampirism is not accepting oneself as a murderer, because a vampire normally
>doesn't see themselves in that way, i.e. according to mortal standards.  Not
>the same species, IMO, can't compare.

Again, I'm apparently the only one who thinks this, but vampires *were*
human, and in fact still have human souls.  They depend on human society
to make thier existence palatable (AMPH) with art, laughter, music, and
enthusiasm.  They procreate through humans.  They form relationships with
humans.  They are not a separate species, and even if they were, the same
universal morality still binds them.

>vampire and not kill.  Can he do this?  He *is* doing this, but he
>desperately needs to drop the angst and guilt and accept what he is.

No!  He needs to struggle against what he is with every fiber of his
being! :-)   (I've taken to calling this point of a discussion
"Knightie/Cousin deadlock," but I suppose, "Amy's being really stubborn
again" would be as, if not more, accurate. <g>)

That said, I enjoyed Marcia's very Dark Knightie-ish "Transitions: For IBs
and Valentines," and if anyone missed it, I do happen to still have it
right in my mailbox as a single HUMUNGEOUS text file, instead of the forty
individual parts.  If you want it like that, and your mailer can handle
it, I'll be happy to share.  :-)

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
Knightie * Light Cousin * Fleur-Booster * (Im)Mortal Beloved
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:12:01 -0700
From:         Alora <alora@a.......>
Subject:      Quest vs. Solution

Sharon wrote:

>In many ways I think Nick would rather have his quest than a solution.

I'm a little behind on my digests, so excuse me if this has already been
hashed out...

I think Sharon hit the nail on the head. This is remarkabley like something
I was discussing with someone else recently.

I think if Nick actually ever found a cure, he'd be SOL. He has made this
grand quest the center of his existance for so long, that if it was
suddenly removed, he'd have nothing left. It's become, for better or worse
(which is debateable, of course) the defining characteristic of his life.
Without it he would be directionless.

And he, as far as we have seen, has *nothing* in his life that carries even
a fraction of the same importance to him as his search for a cure.

Trying to find one gives him a goal and point to his life; without that
quest, he has neither.

Alora: Natpacker & Co-Listowner SKL.....<alora@a.......>
For info about SKL see: http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~mjack/SKL/
"I am surrounded by freaks. So why is it I feel so at home?"--Remington Steele
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:43:38 -0000
From:         Nancy Taylor <taylorln@o.......>
Subject:      Ger's Outer Limits Ep

Hi everyone!  Well, after two tries, I finally have a very good copy of Ger's
Outer Limits episode, "Paradise".  I may be sticking my neck out here,
but I'd be willing to make copies for the Showtime deprived listmembers
out there.  Please e-mail me privately and we can work out the details.

Knightie awaiting the war...
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:55:36 GMT
From:         "Jamie M.R." <immajer@n.......>
Subject:      SOSFK: The Page...

...is being revised, in a major way.  I figure, I oughta be cleaning out
the site & uploading the new version either tonight or tomorrow, depending
on when & whether I sleep.  (I was up all night working on the puppy.  Made
me nostalgic for the good ol' days. <g>)

I have been a lazy and slothful Webgoddess of late, and the SOSFK page has
languished without update since April.  A thousand apologies... but hey,
I've been tired.  That first frenzy back in January wore me out but good...
and then, last night, all of a sudden, I felt this incredible driving
*need* to start tinkering with the page again.  It's actually been going
amazingly smoothly, even that form-thingie I've been tinkering with; so all
the people who've been listening to me talk about updating the page without
ever actually seeing any results should be pleasantly surprised. :-)

Truly.  The thing is like ninety percent done. ;-)  ;-)

If you've got links to any *internal* parts of the Save FK page (e.g. any
part of the page except for the main URL at
http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html) they WILL become
inactive once the new page goes up.  Just so's you know.

The new version will contain information on the most recent SOSFK stuff.
It'll also probably leave out a lot, because I have a memory like a sieve;
when the time comes, I'll be asking y'all to visit the site and point out
anything I've missed. <g>  But the new design ought to be a lot more
streamlined and easier to navigate than the current site, which has become
hopelessly tangled up in its own crosslinks due to the feverish period of
expansion back at the beginning of the year...  I'm also honing down the
graphics to the barest minimum, yet striving for a cleaner & more
professional overall design, as well as a sense of uniformity on the whole

I'm also going to be locating the main page at the URL
<http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR>.  THE OLD URL WILL STILL BE ACTIVE on a
permanent basis, as a pointer to the new location; but this will allow us
to publicize the shorter URL to the SOSFK page without having to go crazy
dealing with that whole looooooong URL... (Rule One for all prospective
webmasters: Make sure the page's URL is as SHORT as possible!  If only I'd
known that back in December... <g>)

And wherever possible, I'm linking to external sites, so that people
organizing various efforts can keep their pages updated independently of me
& my oddball schedule. :-)

So.  There ya go.  I'll letcha all know when it's up.  In the meantime, if
you've got suggestions, holler... catch me before tonight & I'll get 'em
into the next revision...

Jamie M.R. <immajer@p.......>
Listmommy, Illustrated Webgoddess & Keeper of Warm Fuzzies
"Standing on the hill near my mountain of dreams,
 telling myself it's not as hard, hard, hard as it seems..."
The Truth Is Out There.  2,520 Miles Ahead.
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:02:25 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      Re: this is IMPORTANT!!! really!

Kartaan wrote:

>Wow...  Blessed by the Wicked...

Ironic, tho, isn't it? ;)

>Uh, I *would* like to apologize to any AOLers out there...  Tonight I went on
>a pasting spree, and posted Tippi's message on all the FK-AOL boards I could
>find...  Well, not *all* of them...  I left the 'Spoilers' un-spoiled!

I hope you don't get in trouble for spamming!  If anyone says they don't
like spam, tell them to try it with crackers and cheese.  Pfft! ;)

Thanks to all for putting the word out about TV Show Stuff and FK
merchandise.  Does anyone have the email address for the guy at Crescendo?

****Wicked Cousin Tippi****
HEY!  Want FK stuff?  Sony needs to know that you want it! Contact
Anne at TV_ShowStuff@p....... and TELL her NOW! :)
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:58:00 -0700
From:         Alora <alora@a.......>
Subject:      Re: More Nick and Redemption

Sharon wrote:
>> exactly been diligent where Nat's concerned, and judging form his past
>> <snip> jade cups, abarats, shock treatments where he just has to lie there
>> chained to a table getting zapped, injections, spirit walks.

And then my good friend Amy, with whom I rarely agree <g> but I adore all
the same, added:
>I would like to point out that only two of those "fixes," as you consider
>them, postdate his involvement with Nat.

Amy, I didn't interpret Sharon's comment the same way as you did.

While I agree with Sharon that Nick hasn't exatcly been diligent in
*working* for a cure (but you already know what I think about that), I
thought she was demonstrating a much bigger trend in Nick's life. One that
goes far beyond the past six years in Toronto.

Whether or not those attempts pre- or post-date Natalie is really not
important; the point is, that Nick jumps at cures that someone can give
him, and shows no follow-through when it comes to cures that require his

>> the fact that he works much harder at atonement and redemption, and that
>> he's willing to give up mortality for what he thinks will be redemption
>> ("Near Death") is very telling as to what Nick really wants.

>Yes, it is, isn't it?  ;-) I absolutely love that fact.  Nick wants
>mortality, but he wants redemption more.

Yes, he does.

I had a religion teacher in high school, who tried to explain one of the
primary differencs between Western Religion and Eastern Religion (mostly
Christianity): Eastern tends to focus on the mystic, the unknown, the
mysteries of the universe. While western is more practiacally driven: sort
of a "tell me what I have to do to get into Heaven" approach (a direct
quote from a nun--so nobody shoot the messanger). And while I would say
that that is a little over simplified, I can also say that in my experience
(Father: Russian Orthodox; Mother: Protestant; and I was baptized and
raised Orthodox, before converting to Buddhism), it is very true.

And that is the approach Nick takes. He wants someone to tell him that
everything will be ok. That all of his sins are absolved and that there is
nothing left to repay. He sees redemption as an end result--not a process.
If he were capable of seeing it as a process he would be able to recognize
that he has made strides in atoning. But for him it's all or nothing...

And, I for one (as many of you know) do NOT belive ANYTHING is that black
and white.

Like Nat said in Blackwing (blech!): he wants his "soul dry
cleaned"...simple, quick, and something that someone else can do for him.

Alora: Natpacker & Co-Listowner SKL.....<alora@a.......>
For info about SKL see: http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~mjack/SKL/
"I am surrounded by freaks. So why is it I feel so at home?"--Remington Steele
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:22:57 -0700
From:         Margie Gillis <margieg@e.......>
Subject:      good Nat eps

I need some help from NatPackers and N&NPackers.  I've promised to make some
tapes for someone who's a Nat fan.  She watched the show first season, but
stopped watching somewhere around For I Will Repay.  If you NatPackers could
email me offlist with your favorite eps, that would be great.  Actually,
she's looking for "Nat eps, and any others that really stand out", so you
can include other eps (I just know that if I go strictly by my own judgement
she's going to wind up with all the good Immortal Beloved eps instead...).

I'm assuming she'll probably be happier with second season eps since she
doesn't know any third season characters, but I'll take suggestions from all
three seasons.

ObFK:  hmm.  YKYB...when you're driving home one night and notice a *big*
bumpersticker on the car in front of you that reads  "DENIAL  isn't a river
in Egypt"  and you almost drive your car off the road laughing...


Dark Knightie/Immortal Beloved/Unnamed
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:53:04 -0400
From:         "Lisa P." <LadysAVamp@a.......>
Subject:      Off Topic...sort of (The Lisa Thang)

Hi Everyone,

Time for my nightly ranting and raving.  All right, I'm getting confused.
 Not an unusual state of being for me.  But I'm reading posts that mention
"Lisa P." and the problem is - there are 2 of us on this list!  :)  And as
I'm reading I'm thinking - did I say that?  <scratches head>  Which is why I
have begun to use my last name.  When quoting "Lisa P.", I was just wondering
if people could include last names.  If this bothers anyone, then forget I
ever mentioned it.

(Actually, there are ALOT of Lisas on this list.  Time to start our own
faction?  ;) )

Ranting urge satisfied.

Lisa Patnaude

Only one thing is truly permanent...Forever Knight
Cousinly Knightie w/NatPacker tendencies  <I do so hate to limit myself>
LadysAVamp@a......., oboyyme@t.......
<Just call me a Lady of the Knight...but say it with a smile>
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:01:46 -0400
From:         "Margaret L. Carter" <MLCVamp@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Killing, etc.: Sandra's post

Too much here to answer!  As far as "rules" are concerned, the best fiction
involving magic or any kind of supernatural phenomenon makes its rules clear
(OK, the various episodes in FK haven't adhered to a high level of
consistency in this regard -- gasp).  My favorite role model in supernatural
fantasy with clearly explained guidelines as to what the character can or
can't do is Anthony Boucher's delightful "Compleat Werewolf."

I suppose I see FK as a "supernatural vampire" setup because that is how it
looks in the pilot episode.  An SF explanation (e.g., some kind of "vampire
virus") might be workable as a unifying explanation of what we "know" about
vampires from the series (with a lot of tinkering).

'Course I don't hold DRACULA to be definitive for all vampire fiction.  I
just said it's what I personally fixed on from an early age.  In fact, I love
SF vampires; the vampire as a naturally evolved species is my favorite kind
of fiction.  (See my story "Voice from the Void" in THE TIME OF THE VAMPIRES,
ed. Elrod and Greenberg, for my kind of vampire.  I do have a more angst-ing
sort of character in an unpublished novel, though.)  The first time I read
DRACULA (at age 12) I wondered how HE saw these events -- that's why I love
Saberhagen's series -- THE DRACULA TAPE is the book I always wanted to write.
 I have always been fond of vampire-viewpoint fiction.

However, I do valorize books over films for the "authentic" version of
vampirism -- not rationally defensible, just my lit-crit side being dominant.
 The "killing instantly" and "disintegrating in sunlight" conventions are
movie inventions, and authors who use them, I believe, tend to be authors who
are primarily influenced by movie images of vampires, not their literary
predecessors.  (Anne Rice had not read D. before writing INTERVIEW.  The only
story I recall her mentioning as a pre-INTERVIEW influence is Matheson's
"Dress of White Silk" -- not a conventional vampire tale by any measure!)
 (Whether the vampire can function by day varies from one folklore tradition
to another.  Offhand, I can't think of any prominent instance of "killing
instantly" in folklore.  Gradual wasting away seems commoner.  But the neat
thing about vampire folklore is that an author can find just about anything
in some culture's mythology, somewhere, to justify the story he or she wants
to write.)

Margaret L. Carter
Nick / Natpacker, fledgling Light Cousin, and habitual sipper
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:59:36 -0400
From:         Jane Credland <janes@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Blackwing script

At 04:45 AM 6/19/96 -0400, dotti rhodes wrote about Nick calling Nat in

>Uh-uh....no....he did not call her to chortle over anything.  He called her
>because he felt good, for the first time in almost 800 years he felt good
>and he wanted to share it with the one person that means the most to him.

So, what does this say about Nick racing off to tell Janette about his
"mortality" in The Fix?  He didn't just pick up the telephone.  He actually
got into his car and drove to the Raven so he could tell her in person.

Maybe Natalie isn't the one person who means the most to him.  Maybe she is
his best friend, and the only person he could call when Janette wasn't
around.  After all, Lacroix wouldn't have been overjoyed at Nick's news, and
Tracy doesn't know he's a vampire.  So, there is no-one else for Nick to
call but Natalie when Janette's incommunicado.

Jane   (janes@i.......)
Raven ** Immortal Beloved ** M.B.D.T.K
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams
[W.B. Yeats}
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:01:16 -0400
From:         "Margaret L. Carter" <MLCVamp@a.......>
Subject:      Nick's adjustment as a vampire

Well, I guess I don't really want Nick to turn into Saint-Germain.  If he
did, he wouldn't be himself; their personalities are too different.  I really
want him to become similar to P. N. Elrod's Jack Fleming (another vampire
detective).  Jack's powers and special needs involve him in a lot of ethical
dilemmas, and he spends a fair amount of time wrestling with his dark side.
 He drinks cattle blood on a regular basis, too -- human blood is for erotic
purposes.  Unlike Nick, he basically enjoys being a vampire, shares an active
love life with his girlfriend, and has no feeling that vampirism in itself is
evil -- good or evil consists of the choices an individual makes with the
material available to him.  Because of a vampire's strength, hypnotic power,
etc., combined with the blood thirst (Jack's use of hypnosis on witnesses,
suspects, criminals, etc., is a constant source of worry to him, because it
tends to awaken the bloodlust, on top of the ethical question of how far he
is justified in overriding other people's free will), the problem of good and
evil affects him urgently on a daily (nightly) basis more than it does most
people.  To me, that's plenty of angst and moral seriousness, without a
"compulsion to kill" -- which I still think makes the character less
interesting by destroying a big chunk of his free will.  But I understand the
rationale of the opposite viewpoint and know we will never change each
others' opinions.
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:10:34 -0500
From:         "J.S.Levin/Stormsinger" <wabbit@e.......>
Subject:      Re: Killing - sipping - choices

Margie (treeleaf@i.......) says:

>If Nick could just sip and not kill his victim, there would be no moral
>dilemma at all.  He would make love, he would sip a little, and the lover
>would not be a victim, just someone indulging in a little unusual sex.

I think what you are missing is the fact that while he *could* do exactly
that, the
*urge* would be to do more.  There is sex which is good, and there is sex
which is earth-shattering.  What if the opportunity to *always* have
earth-shattering sex were a conscious choice?  Could you refrain from doing
it -- even if you knew the consequences were death to your partner?  Or
might you, riding on the wave of passion, *forget* yourself -- especially if
you have been taught to view your partners as objects, less than yourself
(either man looking at woman, or vampire looking at mortal).

Also, remember this isn't *just* sex.  This is also food.  So it's hunger,
thirst, and all the
nuances of sexual desire tied together.  I personally really like the idea
of that *force* being
something a vampire must learn to control by degrees, rather than a simple
on/off switch.  Otherwise, vampires are not mentally healthy -- they must
either binge (kill) or starve (as Nick is doing on cow's blood, slowly
perhaps, but it is not the correct diet for his body and it shows).  There
is no middle ground of having control over oneself.

Now I admit that the FK "model" of vampirism does work with the "alcoholic"
model that Nat uses on Nick -- but my disagreement with *that idea* is a
whole 'nother tirade! <G>

Storm (Vaquera, Scrapper, Gangrel)
wabbit@e....... (J.S.Levin/Stormsinger)
Their canon met my imagination and was outgunned.
If you practice being fictional, you discover that
"characters" are as real as people with bodies and heartbeats...
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:26:47 -0500
From:         michael wayne jackson <mjay@n.......>
Subject:      Re: Puns!

Linda Simon asked:
>Who was it said (approximately), "It is preferable to be well
>descended, but the glory belongs to our ancestors."  ?

Plutarch in his Morals:

"It is indeed a desirable thing to be well descended, but the glory belongs
to our ancestors."

michael wayne jackson -- mjay@n.......
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:29:40 -0400
From:         "Lisa P." <LadysAVamp@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Blood

In a message dated 96-06-19 13:20:28 EDT, Lisa McDavid writes:

> It seems they considered doing a scene in which the vampire bites on
>  the thigh. The idea was abandoned after research. It seems the blood
>  is under high pressure at this point and the effect would be like
>  trying to drink from a fire hose. (I think this was exactly how she

LOL!  I just got the most hilarious picture in my head <still LOL>!  We see
Lacroix firmly attached to a thigh, his cheeks (facial) puffed out due to the
high pressure of blood being released.  His whole body forced off the ground
and into a horizontal position as his legs swing helplessly out behind him.
 He grasps onto the thigh with both hands, trying to release his fangs before
he reaches critical mass.

I just had to share that with someone before I reached critical mass from

Lisa Patnaude

Only one thing is truly permanent...Forever Knight
Cousinly Knightie w/NatPacker tendencies  <I do so hate to limit myself>
LadysAVamp@a......., oboyyme@t.......
<Just call me a Lady of the Knight...but say it with a smile>

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