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Logfile LOG9606C Part 15

June 18, 1996

File: "FORKNI-L LOG9606C" Part 15

	Spolers: Blackwing
	FK Merchandise/ Sony Doubts we Exist!!
	News from Fred Mollin via AOL FK Chat
	Rational Dark Knighties/Cousins!
	Blackwing script and did they?
	Woops!  Goofball, I am!
	Sony, TV_ShowStuff and FK Merchandise
	Killing - sipping - blood volume
	My response to TV_ShowStuff
	Kindred: the Embraced
	AtA spoiler question
	Ger on Outer Limits tape available
	Nick and Cures (long)
	Blackwing: Did they?

Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:57:36 -0400
From:         Judith Freudenthal <DanaKnight@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Spolers: Blackwing

Dottie, I do have to agree with your post disagreeing with mine.

<<I think the fact that he didn't immediately say "Look, I'm mortal...let's
hit the bed" speaks volumes for the way he feels about Nat.  It goes deeper
than just the physical, he wanted to share the sun (which means the world to
him) with here more than just sharing his body>>

I do think that his feelings for Nat go much deeper than the surface.  You
put is so elegantly <g> <Look, I'm mortal.. let's hit the bed>.  Nick's
problem is in letting Nat know that he loves her.  I think she would not be
so frustrated and sometimes cranky if he told her he loved her.  I also think
she needs to remind him once in a while, but in a non threatening way (no
requests for him to make love to her, or even to love her as much as she
loves him).  I think this very deep feeling for her is why he can't bring her
across, he doesn't want to hurt her.  To take the sun away from her.

Why didn't they do it in the Fix?  I suppose the answer was that he was
waiting to do it properly and was overwhelmed by the fact that he could go
out in the sun.  He did express his joy to Nat when he first when out into
the sun (right after her treatment).

If they ever found the cure I wonder who would be the first to knock the
other to the floor (or any other convienent surface) and ........  Would it
matter if they were in her office?

BTW you're fun to agree and disagree with :)

"Can you explain to me the scientific nature of the Whammy?" Dana Scully
(the quote might also work on FK)
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:56:58 -0400
From:         Judith Freudenthal <DanaKnight@a.......>
Subject:      Re: FK Merchandise/ Sony Doubts we Exist!!

<<I just had a brillient/stupid idea.  Maybe we could get the guy from
Crescendo music (the one who *knows* what you want before you even ask) to
email the merchandise lady just how many requests he's gotten for the CD.>>

Brilliant idea!!!!!

Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:45:24 -0400
From:         Marcia Tucker <ScFiMarci@a.......>
Subject:      News from Fred Mollin via AOL FK Chat

Report on the Forever Knight Chat of 6/17/96 on AOL with special guest Fred

Well, we got a few tidbits out of Fred, who was properly lauded and thanked
for the marvelous Forever Knight soundtrack!

Here are the tidbits of interest (and I'm quoting here):

1. "The CD has not yet arrived in the stores, but the mail order has
been great..Maybe a vol. 2 if we reach the 10,000 mark...
bless you, one and all..."  And Fred said that if there is a second
soundtrack, that "The Night Calls My Name" (Raven song heard in many eps)
WILL be on it!

2. Work Fred has been working on: the movie THE ABDUCTION to premiere on
Lifetime in July and Jimmy Webb's latest album, TEN EASY PIECES due out in
September om Guardian-EMI.
When asked what Fred is working on now, he replied, "I continue to write my
music library for....HARD COPY,,,don't laugh..." and "I recently scored a
film in Canada called LITTLE CRIMINALS. Very strong drama.. keep your eyes
out" (for it)

3. Fred mentioned an album that he has a piece on: "I have a instrumental
piece on each of THE VINEYARD SOUND albums (on Critique-BMG) and the piece on
vol. 1 is called KATAMA MEDITATION"

4. We also tried to convince Fred that he had to come to Bridging the Knight
con so we could all meet him.  Stay tuned!  (BTW, we got Fred to blush!!)

And the biggest tidbit of all...

5. Fred mentioned: "I just heard from Ger and he sounded great. He's very
close to signing on a new series.But I can't tell you more without getting in

:::watching eyes bug out all across the world:::

And when asked about scoring said series, Fred replied, "I would love to
score evrything that Ger does!"

That's about it!  The log of the chat is being uploaded today.  If you are
not on AOL, and would like to receive a copy of the log (it's LONG, as he was
late and it's about 44 pages), send an email to scfimarci@a....... with MOLLIN
LOG in the header.  If you don't put that in the header, your request will
likely be missed.  Please be patient - I will not be able to send the log out
very fast as I've got an extremely busy chat hosting week.

Marcia Tucker / scfimarci@a.......
Dark Knightie / Enthusiastically Unnamed / Immortal Beloved
AOL Forever Knight Chat Host (Mondays, 11 pm ET, The Remote Control, keyword:
"I don't want another one.  I like THAT one!" - LC to Janette, "Father's Day"
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:46:12 -0400
From:         Marcia Tucker <ScFiMarci@a.......>
Subject:      Rational Dark Knighties/Cousins!

Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) wrote:

>>Without the ability to "sip,"  the choice is one between accepting
vampirism and being a murderer, and rejecting it and saving his soul.  With
"sipping," the Cousins and the Dark Knighties begin to sound like the rational
ones.  And they're not.... :-)<<

Ooooh, Amy, my favorite adversary!  :::rubbing hands together gleefully:::
 Let me just begin by saying that Cousins and Dark Knighties are rational in
our own delightful way - mainly from the vampire's perspective, for after
all, Nick and LaCroix are vampires and not, as Janette would say, "subject to
mortal mores."  I see the only obstacles to redemption for a vampire to be 1)
being repentant enough for wanting to be a vampire in the first place (not a
prob for Nick) and 2) excesses as a vampire, in which case the Enforcers
would take care of one first.

Yes, Nick at this stage of his life does identify more with those mortal
mores.  So yes, in his eyes he is a murderer.  To LC, it's all academic -
he's a vampire, he feeds, end of story.  So from the perspective of the Dark
Knighties/Cousins who identify more with LC's notion in this case, accepting
vampirism is not accepting oneself as a murderer, because a vampire normally
doesn't see themselves in that way, i.e. according to mortal standards.  Not
the same species, IMO, can't compare.

No one ever said Nick was normal!  Anyway, being "rational" depends on
whether one is rational with respect to their own perspective, which we
believe we certainly are.

Ohmigod, NOW Marcia's claiming to speak for Cousins...  any Cousins want to
refute me on this, please do.  I can only truthfully speak at this from my
humble little Dark Knightie perspective.  Which, I might add, doesn't mean I
want Nick to be like LC!  In my eyes, Nick can achieve a balance between his
nature and his desire to atone or be a good person.  I want Nick to be a
vampire and not kill.  Can he do this?  He *is* doing this, but he
desperately needs to drop the angst and guilt and accept what he is.

Love wrestling with you, Amy!  (two syllables)  ;D

Dark Knightie philosophy statement and episode/scene list available upon

Marcia Tucker / scfimarci@a.......
Dark Knightie / Unnamed / Immortal Beloved / FFF
"I don't want another one!  I like THAT one!" - LC to Janette, about Nick,
"Father's Day"
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:02:59 -0500
From:         Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject:      *Blackwing script and did they?*

Sharon Himmanen writes:
>You really can't go by what is/isn't in the actual script for canon...
>you really have to go by the whole product that you see.

Yep, I agree.  It's what is actually aired that's really canon.  That,
of course, doesn't mean everyone's interpretation of what they see is
the same. :)  I think Nick and Marian had sex in the real world and
not just on the spirit plane.

And I had that opinion before reading the script excerpt Susan posted
(still wish we could have seen some of that! ;) ).

>I thought adding that bit of sex between them on the spirit plane and
>in the FK real world was tacky and tawdry and rather unnecessary.

I disagree.  I believe (having had such a thing happen to me) that
there are some relationships that are fated to happen.  And this idea
of certain things being "fate" is not unknown in certain native
folklore (not sure about Marian's tribe).  I also think it possible
that the attraction between them stemmed in part from Nick not having
Janette around to turn to for sexual comfort, which would naturally
leave him more sensitive to such overtures and perhaps even cause him
to send out unconscious signals of sexual frustration that Marian
might have "spiritually" picked up on.

Marian was an "untrained" shaman (or healer, or whatever) and also may
not have been able to differentiate between "curing" Nick and "being
attracted to" Nick, so the two became combined.  Then again, someone
with some knowledge of Marian's tribe might be able to say that the
sex was actually necessary to the cure, for all I know. :)

The "unnamed" part of me also can consider the possibility that Marian
was possessed by her dead Grandfather too. ;)  But maybe we don't need
(or want) to go there. :)

>But it is in character for Nick to go off and do something like this,
>then call Nat and chortle about it afterwards (he really doesn't
>deserve her).

If you ask me, I don't think she deserves him.  She's the one who's
afraid to take chances, afraid of relationships.  At least Nick isn't
afraid of such things or afraid of making mistakes or falling flat on
his face.  That willingness to take risks is probably part of what
Nat finds attractive about Nick since it's something she lacks (at
least in her *personal* relationships).

Elena Villafuerte H. writes:
>Can someone please explain why Nick and Marion B. could, and N&N

Marion was able to take away whatever part of Nick that makes him
want to bite a woman when having sex with them by some method of
"native curing".  Nick takes back whatever she took from him at the
end of the episode, which therefore makes him susceptible again to
the biting urge when close to a woman (*any* woman, not just Nat).
It's also possible that Nick has put Nat upon a pedestal of
*mortality* and he resists thinking of being with her in a sexual way.
(Or a romantic way, either.)

Judy Freudenthal writes:
>He does hurt Natalie's feelings without knowing it, but she should
>stand up to him more.

More evidence of her fear of really being in a relationship.

>I love watching Nat kick his butt when he deserves it.

She also though has tended to carp at him more than he deserves too.
And her more "supportive" side seemed to be lacking more in second
and third seasons.

>She does let him get away with far too much.

Well, all I can say about that is, since when does Nat own Nick?  I'm
not a N&NPacker so I guess this kind of line just goes totally past
me.  As far as I could see, they never had much of a committed
romantic relationship.

--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:42:36 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      Woops!  Goofball, I am!

I just realized I had the wrong email address for TV Showstuff in my sig.
The correct address is below in my sig.  Also, I was wondering if someone
could send Anne a tape of 4 or 6 of the "best of" FK.  I'll pay for the tape
and postage, but I don't have a second VCR to dupe.  Thanks. :)

Also, here's the web page and snail mail address:

The website:

The snail mail address:

000 Xxxxxxx Xxxx Xxxxx
Xxxxx X-000
XX-Xxxx Xxxxxx, XX 00000

Thanks to all who have written!

****Wicked Cousin Tippi****
HEY!  Want FK stuff?  Sony needs to know that you want it! Contact
Anne at TV_ShowStuff@p....... and TELL her NOW! :)
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:37:57 -0400
From:         "Lisa P." <LadysAVamp@a.......>
Subject:      Sony, TV_ShowStuff and FK Merchandise

If someone could e-mail me the snail mail address for TV_ShowStuff, I would
appreciate it.

I had posted earlier about going to music stores and putting up flyers in
regards to the FK CD and FK SOS.  I think I'll expand on that idea by placing
copies of them around the entire mall and adding the snail mail address for
TV_ShowStuff.  We must  explain to people who are off-line that we need their

Here's another idea I had the other day as I was driving to the bank.  I saw
2 youth sponsored car washes.  An exchange of sorts, you pay them to wash
your car and they hand out the FK SOS flyers you give them to their
customers.  There must be other places to put the flyers with high traffic.
 Book stores?  Shopping malls?  Grocery stores?  Libraries?

If anyone needs copies of these flyers, let me know.  I have the Word 6.0
(for Windows) version, but can get the Mac version on the ftp site if needed.

I liked the idea (sorry, I don't remember by whom) about contacting GNP
Crescendo.  The last time I spoke to them, I was told they were receiving 5 -
10 calls a day for the CD.  What if we faxed them a copy of the TV_ShowStuff
message and ask them (very nicely)  if they could send an estimate to
TV_ShowStuff of how many purchases have been made for the CD/tape.  Good
idea?  Bad idea?

Let me know what you think.

Lisa Patnaude

Only one thing is truly permanent...Forever Knight
Cousinly Knightie w/NatPacker tendencies  <I do so hate to limit myself>
LadysAVamp@a......., oboyyme@t.......
<Just call me a Lady of the Knight...but say it with a smile>
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:36:25 -0500
From:         Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject:      *RE: Killing - sipping - blood volume*

Margaret Carter writes:
>It makes me grind my fangs when people equate "fantasy" with "no need
>for logic."

It *is* true that the *best* fantasy usually has a world with its own

But sometimes good writing or entertainment can make up for any lack
in rules.

>Setting forth a rigorous set of rules doesn't change fantasy into SF.

No.  Did someone make that assertion and I missed it?

>What makes SF as opposed to fantasy...is that the author claims to be
>extrapolating from known scientific facts.

Well, in the "harder" SF.  There is a lot of stuff out there that
really falls into the realm of "science fantasy"--things with trappings
of SF but no big focus on the science parts of the story.

>Natalie...seems to think FOREVER KNIGHT is SF (except she isn't
>consistent, because she also seems to think blood-drinking in itself...
>has metaphysical overtones--i.e., is intrinsically evil).

Mmmm...I don't know that I agree that Nat thinks blood-drinking is
evil.  I do think that toward the end of third season she was a bit
more open to the possibility that metaphysics couldn't be totally
ruled out as a cure possibility.  She did seem to be more focused on
the scientific approach.  I think, though, that her insistence that
Nick not drink much blood was for more scientific reasons (maybe the
"vampire factor" in Nick's blood was weakened by having less blood in
his diet).

>I don't think FK is SF; I think it's fantasy, in that the vampires
>therein are clearly of the classic supernatural type.

And what is the "classic supernatural type"?  There are as many
different types of supernatural vampires almost as there are different
cultures in the world.  Actually, up until the latter part of third
season, I *could* consider FK vampires as being *natural* (SF)
creations, or rather mutant humans. :)

I think FK now has to be more viewed as science fantasy.  There are
episodes with an SF base (The Fix, Fever, etc.) that just, imo, can't
be explained if FK is just fantasy and the vampires supernatural.
Nat's scientific "fix" in The Fix or the "vamp killing disease" in
Fever should not have affected *supernatural* vampires.

I'm probably still going to try to rationalize FK as SF though. :)

>That doesn't mean they aren't subject to physical laws.

Why not?  What "physical laws" is a magician in a fantasy story using
to do "magic"?  If FK vampires are supernatural in nature, why should
they have to necessarily obey any physical laws?  The fact that the
FK vampires don't do some of the "trite" fictional vampire things like
turn into bats or mist, cast no reflections, etc., points to me more to
them being SF rather than fantasy creations.

>Without clear rules, fantasy fiction can easily degenerate into
>"anything can happen," a thoroughly uninteresting situation --...I
>don't think FK is like this!

So you found the fact that vampires could be killed by an "anti-virus"
to AIDS in Fever not entertaining?  You think *supernatural* vampires
could believably have this happen to them?  How do you explain Nick's
temporary "cure" in The Fix?  Or the vampire who could pass for a
mortal due to having a split personality in Hearts of Darkness.

I think FK has bent their premise (and any "laws") as they see fit if
a story appealed to them.  It's how we got sipping :P, how we got
Nick feeding on humans after the time he supposedly *stopped* doing
so :P, etc.  Sorry, but much as I love FK, I don't think TPTB have
kept to more than any of the most very basic of "laws" (if that!) in
the FK universe.  But, hey, for the most part, I've enjoyed all the
strange journeys they've taken me on.  Even if it does make it a
challenge to try to reconcile any inconsistencies.

>So that (the novel Dracula) is how I see that vampirism is
>"supposed" to be.

Dracula is a work of fiction.  Bram Stoker may have incorporated some
of the European vampire legends into his work.  But there's a lot of
vampire myth preceding Dracula (going all the way back to Lilith,
Adam's first wife before Eve).  And even the European legends are far
from how Dracula is presented; the vampire of legend is a walking
corpse (literally)--smelly, rotting, etc.--although they did seem to
be attracted to former family members/lovers for blood first.  In
Greek legend, I believe the lamia was a woman's head and entrails
that flew about sucking the blood of children (not too sure whether
I got that one right; been a long time since I read any other vampire
legends).  Dracula became the *popular* version of vampires, I guess,
after its publication.  But I don't think it should necessarily be
considered the absolute definitive word on vampires.  And FK certainly
shouldn't be compared to Dracula, but considered in the light of its
own universe.

>If he "has" to kill, eventually he will "snap" and do so.

But what of Screed and carouches, who feed on animals rather than
humans?  There is the possibility that a vampire can choose not to
feed on human blood.  Nick has been drinking cow blood for nearly a
century.  I will admit that because Nick started on human blood, he
does have the potential to "snap", as you say, and kill someone.  But
I think his committment *not* to kill humans shows a great strength
of character.  To so go against his nature is astounding.  I would
think it would be equivalent to a wolf deciding to live on grass. :)
And the potential for Nick to "snap" adds to the drama to me.

>In that case, the only way out of his moral problem is either to be
>"cured" or to commit suicide.

Or to go on as he has, living on animal blood.  This also satisfies
the "moral problem".  If he's not feeding on human blood, then he has
made an enormous moral committment.  It's a tough road to hoe, to be
sure, but worthy, imo, of more respect than "sipping" simply because
of the difficulty inherent in following that path.

Of course, he can still seek a cure and hopefully find one.

And yes, suicide is an option if it became too much for him.

>If he has a choice of whether or not to kill, those who choose to
>kill their victims are truly evil, not just overcome by an
>irresistible compulsion.

Or they're truly really hungry. :)  Seriously, the one factor we're
leaving out of this is what drinking blood is like to the FK vampire
(spoiler protected episode that I can't discuss because I forgot to
put in "Spoiler: Name of Ep" and spoiler space in this, but I assume
you know to which episode I am referring).  Personally, I think it
was a mistake to introduce that idea so late in the series, but since
they did, it may make the FK vampire more naturally predisposed to
kill.  If that is their nature, then is that evil?  With sipping
having been introduced, yes, I think it is.  But one also might look
at it based on the particular vampire's personality--some may not have
the strength of mind or character to be able to resist draining a
person.  Others, like LC, seem to prefer to do it deliberately (which
is part of why I think LC is evil).  IOW, we have to look at *as
much of what we've been shown of the FK universe as we can*  when
evaluating this issue.

I thought it was a mistake to introduce sipping.  But in Crazy Love,
we see that sipping still is not necessarily totally under a vampire's
control, because (at least for Nick) the compulsion is to want to
*possess* more and more of the victim as time goes on.  It would
probably take a strong character to be able to exist solely on

I would have just as soon that sipping not have been introduced though
as I think it weakens Nick's reasons for wanting to be mortal again.

>is vampirism an intrinsically evil condition imposed by the Devil,
>or is it a change to a different mode of life,

Well, since FK vampirism leads to a lot of murdering of humans, I'd
say it was pretty evil myself.  However, *individual vampires* don't
necessarily have to be evil or give in to the desire to kill.  Perhaps
if FK had *started* with the ability to sip, I wouldn't have this

This idea of vampirism being evil doesn't necessarily transfer to
all other vampire universes, btw.

>As long as Nick believes the former, his search for either redemption
>or "cure" is doomed, because...he believes vampires are irrevocably

Depends on what's written. :)  Yes, Nick thinks that as a vampire
he's damned.  But a "cure" does not have to be dependent on *Nick's
beliefs*.  A "cure" can have its own objective reality.  Of course
if Nick *did* find a cure, he'd then have to face whatever "evil"
was still in him (being cured of vampirism doesn't mean Nick wouldn't
still have faults or be incapable of doing anything "evil" in nature)
and decide what he wanted to do about it (if anything).

Redemption is a different thing.  Since Nick believes that as a
vampire he is damned, he won't believe himself capable of redemption
as long as he remains a vampire.  I think he thinks that he needs to
become mortal to have a shot at redemption (his "death" in "Near
Death" would have ended his *vampire* existence, so maybe he thought
that he would be going through the door a mortal again).

>Actually, I wanted Nick to give up this "cure" wild-goose-chase and
>turn into something like Yarbo's Saint-Germain.

While I have enjoyed Yarbro's Saint-Germain books, the more recent
ones haven't interested me as much as the earlier books.  After a
while SG kind of slipped into a predictable rut.  At any rate, SG
doesn't seem to have much inner conflict and it was Nick's inner
conflict that drew me to his character.

Would I have watched FK if Nick was an SG type vampire.  Probably.
Would I have liked it as much?  I guess that would have depended on
the stories.  I watched and liked Kindred when it was on, but I never
found it as dramatically interesting as FK.

To me, if a vampire has the option to sip, he effectively becomes more
of a "super" character (as in superhero, supervillain) and it then
depends on whether the vampire has interesting *character* traits to
make him interesting to watch or read.  Would Nick's quest to be
mortal make much sense if he could sip?  Imo, no.  There's not to me
as much drama in a vampire deciding who to sip from tonight.  It
reduces the whole process to "What do I want for dinner?  Steak or
chicken?"  Ho, hum.  For sipping to be impossible (or very difficult)
makes it much more interesting when a vampire decides he's *not*
going to kill people anymore.  It's like the difference between
walking up a hill and walking up a hill while dragging a 500 pound
weight behind you.  The latter takes a heck of a lot more effort and

I guess that's part of the reason I haven't particularly liked LC's
return either.  Because he was brought back to life, he couldn't
remain the epitome of the "evil" side of vampirism that Nick didn't
want to be.  Viewers who don't perceive LC as "evil" since his
return tend to wonder why Nick wants to be mortal.  It can be
perceived as an adolescent "going against what Dad wants".  And that's
not the case at all, imo.

--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:15:09 -0400
From:         "Lisa P." <LadysAVamp@a.......>
Subject:      My response to TV_ShowStuff

Hi everyone,

Here is what I wrote to TV_ShowStuff.  Please everyone, send in your
response.  Here is where one person can make a difference.


To Whom It May Concern:

Let there be no doubt that there is a desire for FK merchandise.  As I can
only speak for myself of what I would like to see and purchase, it would be
the following.

Books, audio books (read by the actors), videos (all 3 seasons), calendars,
clothing (t-shirts, sweatshirts, jackets), music (the Forever Knight
soundtrack by Fred Mollin is absolutely superb.  A follow up is needed as not
all the music made it onto this CD), misc (coffee mugs, bookmarks, props from
the show, etc.).

If these items were made available, I would not hesitate to go out and
purchase them.  Forever Knight merchandise is a market that has yet to be
tapped.  And I am but one consumer who is ready to indulge in the FK

Lisa Patnaude
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:43:31 -0400
From:         Vampire Junction <vampires@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Kindred: the Embraced

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Jackie wrote:

> This was off the alt.tv.forever-knight newsgroup - can anyone from Canada
> confirm the article?
> >->Cyberfans of Fox's Kindred: The Embraced have reportedly helped
> >revive the cancelled show. Future episodes and TV movies may soon air on U.S.
> >cable channel Showtime.

Or possibly find out if Showtime has a web site and e-mail them.

"The walls of my castle are cracked, the shadows many.  But come in.
Feel yourself at home.   ---Carlos Villarias: Spanish version of DRACULA
Date:         Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:39:31 -0600
From:         Lisa Marvin <wyllow@n.......>
Subject:      Re: AtA spoiler question

Debra Ann Fiorini wrote:
> but when LC goes to burn her body and scatter the ashes to the
> wind, the stake has been removed from her body, but she's still
> dead?  Shouldn't she have revived when the stake was removed
> by LC prior to burning her?  the reason why she stayed dead with
> no stake, no beheading etc.

In the episode where Nick takes the stake out of LaCroix, doesn't LC
indicate that he will die soon unless Nick removes the stake?  So maybe
at the Raven, they just leave the stake in Divia long enough for her to
be really dead.   Or, they could cut it off close to the body and leave
part of it imbedded.  We also don't know for sure that LC didn't behead
her before wrapping up the parts in bandages.  (Maybe he used bedsheets
torn into strips?).    -- This is so GROSS! --
It's another example of inconsistency between episodes.  Probably
because of the different writers, there doesn't seem to be complete
communication between them when they write.  Hence, they each treat the
rules for vampire behavior a little differently.  That's as near as I
can usually get to an explanation when these things happen.

Other opinions?


Lisa M.,  fearless and everlasting Nick&NatPacker - (wyllow@n.......)
"Though lovers be lost love shall not..."  D.T.
SAVE FOREVER KNIGHT! - see this great webpage for details:
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:08:48 -0400
From:         Siona <siona@n.......>
Subject:      Ger on Outer Limits tape available

The Outer Limits episode on Showtime with Ger is on right now.  Since I have
2 VCR's I'm making an extra tape.  What I'd like is $6.50 ($3 tape, $.50
mailer, $3 priority postage).  *OR* I will gladly exchange for any first
season Canadian after Dying to Know You.

First person to e-mail me has it.

Dark Knightie! and proud member of the Unnamed Faction
Watch Forever Knight - SciFi Channel Mon. at 8PM and Tue. 12AM EST.
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:36:25 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick and Cures (long)

From:    "Elena Villafuerte H." <evilla@u.......>
> Can someone please explain why Nick and Marion could, and N&N couldn't?

Either a) it didn't happen physically, or b) Marion had taken the vampire
mystically into herself, and thus Nick was able to avoid vamping out.  Nat
doesn't have any neat mystical powers inherited from her relatives. :-)

From:    "Sharon A. Himmanen" <romana@i.......>
> Subject: Nick and cures
> exactly been diligent where Nat's concerned, and judging form his past
> <snip> jade cups, abarats, shock treatments where he just has to lie there
> chained to a table getting zapped, injections, spirit walks.

I would like to point out that only two of those "fixes," as you consider
them, postdate his involvement with Nat (excluding the injection which was
as much Nat's responsibility as Nick's).  And one of those two, the jade
cup, really traces back to before Nat was born; the cup wasn't on Nick's
mind until LC showed up.  The other which postdates Nat is his interaction
with Marian Blackwing, which almost worked, and would have worked had she
been older and better trained.  He did not, however, go to Marian
*looking* for a cure; he went as if compelled by something he didn't

Just because Nat is the first scientist he's worked with who has had a
plan of action *we* can scientifically appreciate does not make Nick
culpable for not having found someone to invent her methods a century ago.
I think that the very fact that Nick is still willing to pursue a
scientific cure, despite his awful experiences with scientists (The Fix,
LNMTA), and despite his personal convictions that vampirism is a
metaphysical condition, speaks to his diligence in searching for a cure.

You say that Nick has not been diligent where Nat is concerned.  Really?
In the six years they've been working together, there have been ups and
downs.  First season was an up.  Third season was a down.  The three or
four years Nick was without LaCroix were up.  The two years with LaCroix
have been down, and let us not forget that in this current slide Nick has
had to deal with losing his memory, getting possessed by a demon, and
getting sick for the first time in eight centuries, not to mention the
spoiler-protected traumas!

Nick may "forget" to take his vitamins, and he may spit out his protein
shakes on the first taste, but he *has* stuck with this life for six
years, through good and bad.  He has the good grace to be embarrassed
about the vitamins, and he does keep tasting the protein shakes.  All
three seasons began with an attempt by LaCroix to drive him out, and Nick
has stayed.  Considering the vampiric convention of moving on -- what LC
would call the imperative of their nature -- I think that Nick's
persistence in this time and place has been amply demonstrated.

> the fact that he works much harder at atonement and redemption, and that
> he's willing to give up mortality for what he thinks will be redemption
> ("Near Death") is very telling as to what Nick really wants.

Yes, it is, isn't it?  ;-) I absolutely love that fact.  Nick wants
mortality, but he wants redemption more.  He wants to be mortal, because
it's the only way (save death) to escape the beast that drives him to
feed, to kill.  Mortality is secondary to salvation.  He has his
priorities in order.  Oh: wait.  Were you criticizing him?  :-)

From:    Swordsister <catheboo@c.......>
> Well, the centuries part is debatable.  I know there are those who think
> that Nick was unhappy with vampirism since the day (night, sorry ;)) he
> became one.  I personally think Nick actually *liked* being a vampire...

Nick gave up killing and went on cow blood approximately a century ago.
Nick developed his code of killing "only the guilty" at approximately age
400.  Both of these facts are established in LYTD, though, of course, he
has had moments of backsliding.  By the time of the flashback in "The
Fix," Nick's search for a cure is already well established, as implied by
Janette's remarks.  So grant that for the second four centuries of his
life, he's been unhappy with vampire life, and that for the last century
he's been overtly rejecting it.

But what about the first four centuries?  You are right that, after the
initial expressions of angst ("Change me back" in DK, and "Your slave" in
KI) he seemed to settle in, going so far as to tell Fleur that he did not
regret what he was.  However, if he really had *no* regrets, wouldn't he
have let LC take Fleur?  And how often have we truly seen him *happy* as a
vampire?  Taking pleasure in feeding and killing?  Off the top of my head,
the only example that comes to mind is in "Hunted."  The others all end in
pain and regret in the past as well as the present.

> present state, some sort of moral requirement that he reject his "evil",
> regardless of whether or not he can actually purge himself of it.

I maintain that the heroism of Nick's stance lies in the difficulty of of
achieving his goal.  Regardless of whether he can become "good," he will
try.  Striving against hopeless odds for what is right inspires me. Doing
evil because it's just "too tough" to do good would repulse me.

> And vampirism is a Catholic martyr's dream come
> true... eternal, self-inflicted misery caused by something you'll never
> be able to rid yourself of, no matter how hard you try.

I have spoken to Catherine, and I trust that this statement was not
intended to offend.  I'm trying to leave it at that, but the idea that
someone might take this at face value really bothers me.

Martyrdom is NOT about "self-inflicted" anything.  And it is NOT about
embracing misery.  And it is NOT about that kind of mental illness which
causes people to seek out pain.  It IS about being a witness of faith,
even unto death, which is endured through an act of fortitude.

Those of you who care already know I'm Catholic, and that I embrace Nick's
point of view because it resembles my own.  That sometimes seems to get
lost in the shuffle when analyzing Nick, but the fact is that some of us
think Nick's search for redemption is not merely viable, and not merely
admirable, but essential.

From: Cathy <cfoster425@a.......>
> But, I ve <never> thought of FK as scary.  Does anyone?

Uh... me?  FK used to freak me out on a regular basis.  :-) Cop plots and
vampire parts alike. O' course, I tend not to watch R-rated movies,
either, and I don't watch X-Files because back when it was getting
started, I was sure it would be too scary.... :-) But the deeper I've
gotten into the FK, the less superficially scary I've found it. :-)

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
"Okay, then what is the capital of North Dakota?"
        -- Nick, in the LK gag script
(Keeper of the Light Cousin FAQ: email me for a copy.)
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:11:15 -0500
From:         Robbi Egersdorf <egersdor@m.......>
Subject:      Re: Blackwing: Did they?

>, and the fact that Jess (?) asked if Nick was married before telling him
>Marian could help him.

I took Jesse's asking if Nick were married to mean that it could be a wife
that was causing the darkness around him that he couldn't escape from.  He
said, "It couldn't be that then."  When Nick said he wasn't married.

Knightie With Dark Tendencies
Long Live the Knight

(Who says Dark Knighties are delusional?)

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