FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 7 Jan 2002 to 8 Jan 2002 (#2002-8)

Tue, 8 Jan 2002

There are 13 messages totalling 523 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Vampire Reproduction (3)
  2. Stories (5)
  3. What Parriott said (4)
  4. Nat Attack

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Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:35:53 -0800
From:    Bonnie <callalily@l.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

I'm going to try to tackle several responses here as best I can without
writing a dissertation about all this -- hopefully this will be shorter than
responding to each post individually. ;-)

>From:    Libratsie@a.......
>And there's at least one subspecies of vampire in the FK universe, and that
>is carouches.

It's really difficult to say if carouches are a subspecies or simply display
different traits while being the same species.  It all depends on how FK
vampires get classified.  It could simply be a race issue -- a "cultural"
difference, as it were -- and there can be as much variation between
strangers of the same race as there are between strangers of different races.


>There is a difference in the creation ie: birth of a carouche vampire which
>takes place in first feeding on human blood vs. "lower" animal blood.

This is a good point.  The cells of a dog, the genetic material, the blood
itself is different from that of a human.  If any of those things are
permanently passed along -- as opposed to just being a non-reactive carrying
reagent -- then a carouche would be genetically different.


>From:    chris thatcher <mb_the_spy@y.......>
>'sit jus' me, or is this discussion running away with itself? ;)  I rather
>thought of the issue
>philosophically: mortals pass on their legacy through their children, but
>if you're immortal....
>you can't have it both ways.

Well, NICK thinks it's more philosophical, NAT thinks it's more scientific.
Depends on your perspective, on your beliefs.  FK canon can be interpreted
both ways -- perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As far as immortals having it both ways, well, why not?  Who's to say....


>From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
>From a genetic standpoint, the vampiric creature would have genes from
>both biological parents, genetic material from his/her/its sire, and -- if
>we are to believe that carouche are lower functioning or
>animal-functioning, regardless of physical appearance -- its first prey.

It makes things very complex, doesn't it?  <G>  FK just simply didn't give
us enough information to really decide anything, as much as I would like to
come up with something all scientifically accurate.

>I suspect it would be quite difficult to classify such a person using
>standard Linnean taxonomy...

Well, with the mapping of the human genome and all the other scientific
advances we've had since Linnaeus's time, his method may someday soon
require updating, but to this day the basic principles remain sound.  Things
which were classified one way a hundred years ago, have been completely
reclassified as something else today but only because we have gathered more
information about them.  But, that's what we humans like to do, classify
things, put things in nice, neat little boxes so we can easily tell one
thing from another -- it makes some of us very happy -- just ask the
librarians on this list!


>From:    Cecilia Long <celong@m.......>
>Perhaps thats you, but I know that myself and many women I know lose FAR
>MORE then less then a cup of blood.  I would lose closer to three of four,

Four cups is about a liter -- you lose a liter of blood and you're pretty
much unconscious and in dire need of a blood transfusion!

Granted, that's losing a liter straight from a vein or artery within a short
period of time.  But, that's not how menses works, a small amount of blood
accumulates on the uterine wall very slowly over the weeks preceding menses
(so small, in fact, that your body is able to replace it  before you even
notice it's gone).  When menses occurs, you're merely shedding that lining
and it has nothing to do with the blood presently coursing through your
veins -- if it did, they wouldn't allow you to give blood during menses, but
they do, they don't even ask you if you're on your period.

Plus, as someone else mentioned, there's more being shed than just blood
cells, which would account for the appearance of a seemingly larger volume
being lost.


>But people usually get old too and vampires dont, so i dont see anything
>unusual about a vampire who when turned at a younger age, keeping the eggs
>she carries younger along with the rest of her....

This is a VERY interesting statement, and I did think about this late last
night.  If the eggs are NOT affected by the woman becoming a vampire, then
they would get old and die.  But, if they WERE affected, that might make
them viable forever, or it could prevent them from changing, from combining
with a sperm cell.  The same could be said for male vampires -- maybe their
sperm becomes immortal, but can't combine with an egg and replicate, or,
perhaps a male vampire simply stops producing the sperm as it's suddenly
unnecessary.  And, with a vampire's low heart rate, I've always wondered if
the lower blood pressure would cause what Parriott declared: "vampire sex
doesn't happen below the neck."


>And while Ill skip the plant hill reference because I odnt have the science
>to back that up, but I beleive that is wrong,

It's not wrong; I'm a botanist.  But, plants are different from animals --
right down to their cell structures and organelles.  Just ask Bunnicula!
LOL!  It was merely an example to illustrate how varied organisms are on
this planet, despite having the exact same nucleotides making up their
genetic code.


>While the POTENTIAL is there to have the GD mate with the TP... healthy
>puppies? No way.  First off if mating diidnt kill the TP (if female) alone,
>the size inherent difference in the puppies probably would....

Well, I wasn't talking about actually giving birth to the puppies, just that
the egg and sperm could be combined, possibly resulting in a viable
offspring.  Sure, there are bad genetics -- but, that's the incredible thing
about sexual reproduction, it tries very hard NOT to pass along bad,
damaged, or inferior genes.  We sort of mess with that by intervening
medically and such, but we have our reasons, right or wrong, good or bad.  I
wasn't making any judgements here.  I'm just saying that the actual genetic
code of different breeds of dogs is quite similar, despite the HUGE
difference in physical characteristics -- that's why the dog genome is being
studied so closely.  It's really quite fascinating.

>Now to bring it back to FK....if I remember canon it was a virus that caused
>the vampirism, whihc could or could not effect the sperm....viruses dont
>have to change DNA.

Excellent point.  They don't have to change the DNA, but they can.  Or, they
can change some cells, but not others.  Chicken pox, for example, exhibits
certain symptoms when you first contract it, then the virus lays dormant in
your nerve cells -- it's not passed along to your kids -- but it can
reexhibit other symptoms later -- this is Shingles, but it's the same virus.

Vampirism could be a virus.  It could be a virus which does change your DNA,
or the DNA of certain cell types within your body.  Or, it could be a
symbiotic relationship between the vampire DNA and human DNA -- neither
changing, but co-existing, with the needs of one being dominant over the
needs of the other.  Humans need food, but the vampire needs blood, so maybe
the vampire symbiot is able to metabolize the blood in a way that no other
nutrients are needed for the host body.  See?  This is so cool!

I wish Nat had spend a little more time on screen with all those blood
samples she kept taking from Nick -- if they weren't going to show us her
having a life, then the least they could have shown us was her having a
relationship with her microscope and DNA sequencer!


>From:    Molly Schneider <thestormborn@m.......>
>It helps to have scientific input. :)  I only know, from my own experience,
>that the amount of blood I lose during menses makes me very faint and
>fatigued for several days.

The faintness and fatigue are caused by other things.  If it were the just
blood loss, you'd be feeling bad the ENTIRE month, because you're losing a
little at a time from your system, and it's merely being stored in the
lining of the uterus.  There are way more things going on during menses
chemically, hormonally, and physically -- the blood loss really is just the
messy part, the thing we can see, so it's easy to forget about all the stuff
going on at the cellular level.

But, it's a point.  If a female vampire's body held onto it's blood -- like
with Nick reabsorbing his blood after his seemingly fatal pipe-bomb injury
in OtL -- then maybe a female would still be fertile, but would need a
segregate mother because the egg would have nothing to implant on.  Or,
maybe an embryo would be seen as a foreign body -- especially if its genetic
material was not vampiric like the mother's -- and would be seen as a
foreign body the vampire's body would simply eliminate.  The same might
apply to sperm.  If it was manufactured, it might be immediately killed off
as a foreign body.  The vampire system as we've seen in FK is remarkable in
the way it fights disease -- and, again, there was all that good scientific
study in "Fever" which happened OFF screen, so we don't know the detailed
findings of Nat's studies.  It certainly leaves a lot open for speculation
in fanfic.


>From:    Laudon1965 <Laudon1965@c.......>
>their mortal reproduction systems would be evolutionarily
>(is this a word?<g>) unnecessary, an inefficient use of
>resources, and I think would have been eliminated.

But, it's likely that, if vampires were originally a mutation of Homo
sapiens sapiens, a mutation resulting in a different way to procreate.  Then
again, it's possible that vampires arouse around the same time as humans,
each filling different niches in the environment, one niche required sexual
reproduction, the other did not so the ability was simply lost over time.
With longevity, it's not quite as urgent to breed in large numbers very
quickly, and it may actually be detrimental to the species.  As LC said in
"A More Permanent Hell" once all the humans were gone, the older vampires
would live on, starving, but not dying.  It therefore makes sense to keep
their numbers relatively small in comparison to their food source.


>From:    Lorin <vachesang@1.......>
>So we can probably assume that all the organs are there, more or less
>intact, but would they be functioning?  Nick's heart beat only once
>every few seconds, IIRC, and I can't remember if it was canon or fanon
>that they don't actually *need* to breathe.

See, we don't know.  They may stop functioning, or they may function in a
different manner.  Nat should have kept poor Urs on ice after AtA, instead
of incinerating her!  She probably could have learned a lot about vampire
physiology, ultimately saving herself, Nick, and the show!  I'm sure Urs
would have understood had someone taken the time to explain the bigger
picture to her.

>Hmmm.  Perhaps that was the problem with Divia - she was brought across
>just exactly at the 'wrong' stage of development for a girl!

Well, Divia is another interesting case.  She didn't just kill her vampire
victims, she made them ill -- Vachon wasn't healing after she scratched him.
Then again, Nick did heal -- he chalked it up to being older or something,
but maybe it was simply because he was related to her through LC, maybe he,
Janette, and LC all had some sort of immunity to whatever it was.  But, Urs
and Vachon, being a different blood line didn't have that immunity?  If
that's the case, and we're classifying these guys based on their genetics,
maybe there are different subspecies of vampires, or subspecies of the virus
which change humans into vampires.

Oh that Nat was a geneticist or a virologist instead of an M.E.!!  She
should have spent all those years trying to map the vampiric genome instead
sitting around moping because she couldn't get a date and Nick wouldn't get
a klew!!

Bonnie
Cousinly-Receptionist-In-Training
Staff Scientist is my spare time
<callalily@l.......>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 22:39:37 -0500
From:    Cecilia Long <celong@m.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

> But, if they WERE affected, that might make them viable forever, or it
>could prevent them from changing, from combining with a sperm cell.  The
>same could be said for male vampires -- maybe their
>sperm becomes immortal, but can't combine with an egg and replicate, or,
>perhaps a male vampire simply stops producing the sperm as it's suddenly
>unnecessary.


Which is how Jeanette could have been pregnant?  Perhaps they just go
dormant until a special event. Perhaps in Baby Baby they were trying to
"reactivate" the human reproductive process... And that if vampires regain
their humanity, they would be restored to their previous full potential...

Very interesting thoughts all of this. What a conversation!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:23:45 -0800
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Stories

Emily Lacey <laceye@a.......> wrote:

> I read the story by April Hackett called "Darkest
> Memories". It is obviously the second of at least two
> stories. Is this familiar?
>Can anyone please tell me what the name of the first story
>is?

When I first read "Darkest Memories" I too was compelled to
look for the prequel. I asked April herself and she told me
that she never wrote a prequel for DM. It might have been
something else or a story by another author. If you ever
find the name of that story, please let me know too. Or
perhaps the two of us can encourage April to write the
prequel. Although I doubt that it would work because she
already has another unfinished story under her belt.


=====
Countess -- Twilight Knightie,IB,DT,UF,Cotk

"Trudging through enternity, hauling my homemade horrors, do you think THAT was
my dream when I was young and evil?"

                           -Mommy Fortuna, The last Unicorn

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:03:06 +0000
From:    jennii35 <jennii35@i.......>
Subject: Re: Stories

When I first read "Darkest Memories" I too was compelled to
look for the prequel. I asked April herself and she told me


  Hi,

   Yes, I had previously read another story
    aboutNick in Nazi hands, and would
    really like to know the author and story name
    Let's hope someone will remember the  story,
    I would like to re read it.

    Dot

Dark Knightie and UFer
jennii35@i.......

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:29:45 EST
From:    Rhynnah Bayne <BaybeBansheesMom@a.......>
Subject: Re: Vampire Reproduction

In a message dated 1/6/2002 7:41:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
callalily@l....... writes:


> I think the real problem with female vampires, which Amy mentioned, would be
> the age of the eggs.  She's right in that eggs are produced once and are
> not replenished during a woman's lifetime -- and they do get old.

 Hello,

Delurking to make a comment here..... This was a lovely argument, well
thought out and very coherent. Nice reading, Bonnie. I do disagree on this
point though.... You are looking at the female vampire physiology through the
eyes of mortal aging, aren't you? If vampires do not age and the factors of
time, decay, environmental change do not trouble or affect them, then would
their eggs get old? I admit that every woman is born with all the eggs they
will ever have. That number cannot be added to so perhaps (if a menarche is
present) a vampire would concieveably run out of eggs early in her immortal
life.... I would speculate that the hormonal process is utterly different in
an immortal species, that the maturation of an egg would probably not occur
since the rest of their natural processes are arrested at the point of their
conversion.
       As far as sperm, I would think that conversion might act much as a
natural vasectomy, arresting the production of sperm and allowing the vas
deferens to empty itself over time. With no new sperm being produced, the
effect is the same as if the vampire submitted to surgery. Again, there are
always exceptions to the sterilization and the rare subject will produce
sperm, occasionally in quantity. Breakthoughs of this nature are rare but
raise the possibility that such rarities occur in other systems as well.
       Regardless of the probabilities, <grinning behind my hand> the
tantalizing possibility of a fertile vampire, male or female, will continue
to fuel fanfics for years to come......

Sincerely,
Kat^_^

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:23:38 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: What Parriott said

Actually, Parriott didn't quite say that vampire sex doesn't happen below the
neck unless this is something that I've forgotten or is recent. I think that's
from one of the on-air ads which has Nick saying something about 700 years of
"never making love below the neck." (No, most of us didn't see these on tv. I
saw them at a con.)

What Parriot said was that in FK "any mortal woman who tried to have sex with a
vampire would finded herself penetrated above and below the neck." That is, in
FK sex triggers biting.

Yes, of course, they then proceeded to violate this dictum seven ways from
Sunday. This is FK, where consistency isn't just an endangered species, it's
extinct. <sarcasm off>

McLisa, facing a new kind of cataloging and therefore in a sharp-tongued mood :)
Listowner, Forkni-l
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:43:19 EST
From:    Judith Lieberman <JudithL21@a.......>
Subject: Re: Stories

I remember reading a tale by Stephen Lansing. I forgot
the title, but Nick was captured by Nazis when he
was in underground. It is in a flashback.  It is on
Mel's list and is a longer one, but good.  It is sort
of a xmas tale, but that is only background. I'm going
to look up title.  Judy Lieberman

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:45:32 EST
From:    Judith Lieberman <JudithL21@a.......>
Subject: Re: Stories

The title of Lansing story is "And to all a good Knight"
I read it quite a while ago.  JudyL

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:12:23 EST
From:    SField8067@a.......
Subject: Re: Stories

>>>When I first read "Darkest Memories" I too was compelled to
look for the prequel. I asked April herself and she told me
that she never wrote a prequel for DM. <<<<

I have discussed this with April  (My bud and sometimes writing partner <G>on
many occasion and she definatly does have the notion to write  a prequel to
"Darkest Memories",I'm sure time allowing, she will write it.
susan
SField8067@a.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:50:00 -0500
From:    Portia Eins <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Nat Attack

Very cool -- I was just checking out the online TV Guide Crossword puzzle and 42
across was "Catherine of Forever Knight."  For a moment I panicked and couldn't
think of the answer!  LOL

Portia

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:15:45 -0600
From:    Kristin Harris <kris1228@s.......>
Subject: Re: What Parriott said

Hi,

Just a note, to those who want to see a clip of this ad: "Below the Neck,"
it is on my site in the "Bloopers/Misc" movies section. It's a very cool
commercial!

To add to the topic, maybe that ad was made, mainly because Nick *usually*
can not make love below the neck, unless the other person's a vampire
already, like Serena for example in "Baby, Baby." I remember seeing an
interview, where Parriot discusses that is the vampire's main kick, the
bite, and the kissing, etc. just builds up to it.

Kristin
http://knightvision.4ever.cc
"When you only have eyes for the Knight..."


> Actually, Parriott didn't quite say that vampire sex doesn't happen below
>the neck unless this is something that I've forgotten or is recent. I think
>that's from one of the on-air ads which has Nick saying something about 700
>years of "never making love below the neck." (No, most of us didn't see
>these on tv. I saw them at a con.)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:35:32 EST
From:    Jeannie Ecklund <Gersknightlady@c.......>
Subject: Re: What Parriott said

> "Baby, Baby." I remember seeing an
>  interview, where Parriot discusses that is the vampire's main kick, the
>  bite, and the kissing, etc. just builds up to it.
>

I could swear during the time she's "makeing love" to that man on the top of
the CN tower, the flash backs are really her and Nick and they didn't have
clothes on.  There was more than neck biting going on there: )= and a climax
that seemed to be reached without the biting.

Jeannie

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:49:01 -0600
From:    Kristin Harris <kris1228@s.......>
Subject: Re: What Parriott said

Yes, it was Nick having a very intense flashback... yummm... :)

Kristin
http://knightvision.4ever.cc
"When you only have eyes for the Knight..."


> I could swear during the time she's "makeing love" to that man on the top of
> the CN tower, the flash backs are really her and Nick and they didn't have
> clothes on.  There was more than neck biting going on there: )= and a climax
> that seemed to be reached without the biting.
>
> Jeannie

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End of FORKNI-L Digest - 7 Jan 2002 to 8 Jan 2002 (#2002-8)
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