FORKNI-L
Logfile LOG9606D Part 8
June 23, 1996
File: "FORKNI-L LOG9606D" Part 8
TOPICS:
Nick and Nat Vs. Nick and Janette
Got "The Facts of Unlife", & "Blind Faith"
Good and evil (3)
N/N or N/J topic
CERK shirts
CERK shirts, Close Call
The Fix & other stuff (4)
SKL Loop
I'm baaaaaaccccckkkkkk!!!!!
for Washington D.C. Folks
Question about time frames ....
Janette evil? -- Spoilers, HF, Francesca
Hello everyone
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:53:58 -0400
From: "Susan M. Garrett" <susang@v.......>
Subject: Nick and Nat Vs. Nick and Janette
Ah, the debate rears its head again . . . but this time it's getting ugly.
Let's back off a minute people and remember that your opinion is your own.
It's to be shared, but not to beat someone over the head with like a dead
tuna until they either give up in disgust and leave or concede to your
opinion just to shut you up.
If we look at the technical history of the characters--just how and why
things were written as they were--we see some different sides of the
question. (Keep in mind that this has absolutely NO relevance to the
question of the episodes of canon--it's just an odd sidelight to the
discussion.)
Nick Knight had a male coroner and Janette was a two-bit character meant to
impart information. By the time Dark Knight was put together, the coroner
was now the female lead and Janette developed into a continuing character.
There was no intention at the beginning to have Nick and Nat romantically
involved. In fact, there was talk about trying to avoid that.
But then the actors happened. During the beginning of first season, it's
obvious that Ger and Deb have an on-screen sizzle that is NOT to be denied.
Face that off with the fact that Ger and Cath interacted like a married
couple who still loved each other well but who knew each others' limitations
and you had a wonderful bit of tension going in the performances.
From what we've been told, OTL very much surprised the cast--it was written
with that 'big brother' thing in mind but as they worked on it something
more developed. Nick and Nat very much had a life of their own. OTL also
colors the episodes it follows. If FK had ended with one season, boy would
this be a different discussion.
But it didn't. When FK came back after a long hiatus, JP decided to back
off the Nick & Nat stuff (he's said this publically on AOL) because he felt
that they couldn't do anything more with it and it was self-defeating--the
characters couldn't take it to a physical aspect because of the obvious
problems and he wanted to avoid having any continuity in FK because it
limits story options.
*Ahem*
So we got a half season of FK with Nick & Nat played down, but Janette not
necessarily played up. And the writing started. Imagine this season's
comments to TPTB about LaCroix-lite having happened, but with a little less
anger and a lot less vituperation. By November, JP admitted that they'd
made a mistake and they were reintroducing the Nick and Nat angle and that
the script was being written (as it turns out, by his wife, Diane Carey).
That script was BMV.
*Ahem*
Then we had DOW II, when Nigel and Deb chatted with us. Most of the topics
that week evolved around LaCroix or Janette for obvious reasons and the
characters' relationships with each other and Nick. Deb gave us spoilers
for "Partners of the Month" and said we would see that Nick and Janette had
a long-term relationship at one time that lasted 97 years. She never
implied that Nick was it for Janette, although she did say that Nick could
have both women and that she wanted Janette to develop a relationship with
Natalie at some time--not necessarily a friendship, but mutual understanding
and respect.
After DOW and in March, we heard rumors about who was leaving when. JP
passed along, just before the Weekend With Ger, that John Kapelos was
leaving. At the Weekend, Ger talked quite a bit about the Nick and Nat
relationship and how he thought it was important to the series. When asked
about Nick having taken Nat to see Janette in "The Fix" his comment was,
"That was tacky," and he defended Nick by saying that Nick wasn't in his
right mind. He also said that it was felt the female characters weren't
being used to their potential (comment from me--this was the LaCroix or
Schanke season). Ger also said that there'd be more 'neck of the week' and
he was looking forward to that.
In hindsight, we now can color a lot of what Ger said because we know they
were negotiating with the actors at that time. It was only some time after
the weekend that we found out Deb wouldn't be back.
So we start out third season almost just having seen "Crazy Love" . . . and
Deb's not there any more and we end up getting Nick 'sipping'. Tracy was
thrown into the mix and there was NOTHING between Nick and Tracy there or
intended to be there (*big sigh of relief*). "Black Buddha" opened with Nat
giving Nick some of the hell she used to in first season . . . and there was
backlash on the list against the opening episodes, most about what had been
done to LaCroix's character.
So, the Nick and Nat thing got lost--the Janette thing just about forgotten
since Deb was gone--and people started asking when we'd have a Nick and Nat
episode. Supposedly, MBIAV was it.
Then we got rumors about Deb coming back for an episode. "Human Factor" was
filmed in late December, just as it seemed the show would be closing up for
good ("Avenging Angel" very possibly would not have been finished, which
would have meant that "Human Factor" could have been our final episode of FK).
Without getting into spoilers or content--we haven't gotten a lot of
production word on this episode, so maybe we'll be able to fill in some
details with Ger this weekend--we proceeded on through to the end of the
season.
So, "Human Factor" becomes pivotal in any discussion of Nick and Nat Vs.
Nick and Janette on a number of levels. It's the last official word on
Nick's current relationship with Janette, just as LK is the last official
word on Nick's relationship with Nat (just as LK is the last official word
on certain people's relationship with the fans, but it's only got four and
three letters, so we really can't say that on a PG list).
That's the background. We'll get more insight on this last season from Ger
this weekend.
And, like I said at the start, this DOESN'T affect content. It's just the
facts, what we were told by production and the people who were working on it
about how they felt about what they were doing and how they were doing it.
The episodes have to be read on their own, without this. You can't go by
what an actor says about a part, just by the performance that's part of canon.
But it certainly makes it interesting.
Regards
susang@v....... -- http://www.vitinc.com/~susang
STILL Faithful Ravenette.
"Friends help you move. Real Friends help you move bodies."
SOS-FK Page at http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:06:53 -0300
From: "l.d. steele" <aa300@f.......>
Subject: Got "The Facts of Unlife", & "Blind Faith"
A couple of very kind people dug up my story and forwarded it back to me.
Thanks. :)
Blind Faith aired last night. I <really> tried to stay up and recopy it
(my first copy isn't the best), but about 1:30 my eyes were closing and I
was taking short cat naps -- FK airs at 02:30am. Sigh. I am <not> a night
person.
I rewatched the first few minutes. It was (IMHO) a stupid story concept,
and the ending was <weird> but... The guest actress, GWD and the guest
dog managed to pull it off. I really don't know how. :) Thoughts?
Dawn
ld.steele
h36a@u.......
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:20:50 -0400
From: Mary Davis <Spirit3679@a.......>
Subject: Re: Good and evil
In a message dated 96-06-23 07:08:49 EDT, Nina wrote:
>
>Congratulations. You've just justified the Holocaust.
WHOA!!! Big jump there, Nina. It may be time for you to look over your
notes from Logic 101, they would be the ones about the fallacy of going from
specific to general.
And in case you've forgotten, this is a discussion of a fictional world.
>"Hillel said: Be of the students of Aaron; love peace and pursue peace..."
>Pirke Avot 1:12
Please read your own signature and try to practice what it says.
Remember the rules of the list and BE NICE.
Mary Davis
Foolishness is a wonderful folly.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:36:25 -0300
From: Stapleton <d7ux@u.......>
Subject: N/N or N/J topic
Since I've joined the list (a good while ago), this topic has come up many
a time. Now I'll admit, that because of my feelings towards a particular
character(s), the responses I give may be completely varied from anothers.
That goes without saying. I'm sure each of us is at least to some degree
biased. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But it is something to take
into consideration, when we do post our theories on why something happens
in the episodes.
Myself, I'm a staunch NatPacker. I know that my thoughts on an episode
often vary, depending on how she is being shown in an episode, as well as
the characters interactions with others. She's a person that I can
identify with. There are times when I think some other characters need to
cool off, as well, I think there are some times when Nat could have
reacted differently. (Sounds rather confusing, doesn't it).
However, we have to work with what we were given on the screen. And as
usual, interpretations will differ.
Plus, we need to lighten up a bit. Heck, we've got a WAR coming up. WE
need to save all our energy :-)
Lynn Stapleton
d7ux@u.......
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:24:15 -0500
From: Kayla Clark <katygale@i.......>
Subject: CERK shirts
I'm nomail, so please send any comments, questions, flames, and/or general BS
to me via private e-mail.
ObFK: A friend is going to the Weekend with Ger and she had not yet seen
either first or second season, so I taped 2nd for her and we watched Close Call
together. She suggested an entirely new understanding of the scene where LC
stands up as if to tell Schanke it's time to go. I had always thought of that
as just him being his usual imposing self. Kathy thought that it was related
to what LC had just finished saying, "The Nicholas I know doesn't like to kill
people." Then, LC stands up as it to say,"But I don't have a problem with it."
I love watching that ep and BMV with people for the first time. It's so fun!
==============
Sorry to post to the big list, but I've forgotten who is doing the CERK shirt
run this time - Ron, is it you again? Anyway, please contact me. I've got 3
netless orders and need to know specifics.
==============
I've started watching Renegade (Hey! Everything else is in reruns and LL has
such beee-yoo-tee-ful hair) and have seen an actor from HL (playing a part
similar to her character on HL) and one from XF (playing a part similar to his
character on XF). I'm wondering when one of the FK people will show up. And,
Renegade is *not* filmed in Canada (at least the credits thank the San Diego
Film Commission . . . ) so I can't say anything about the #s of actors in
Canada.
ttfn,
--
Kayla, katygale@i....... (Clan Drummond by birth, "Go Carefully")
Clan Ventrue (KTE) by choice, *Luna*tic ~ DFWI ~ Cousin
Kindred, SAAB, Profit and Strange Luck can be brought back by fan support.
Write NOW!
"They made me forget and that's all I remember." - Schanke, "Close Call"
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:33:57 -0600
From: Gay Eckes <raven@r.......>
Subject: Re: CERK shirts, Close Call
At 11:24 AM 6/23/96 -0500, Kayla Clark wrote re CC:
>(Kathy) suggested an entirely new understanding of the scene where LC stands up
> Kathy thought that it was related to what LC had just finished saying,
>"The Nicholas I know doesn't like to kill people." Then, LC stands up as it to
> say, "But I don't have a problem with it."
Oh I agree! Reminds me of a King Cobra rising--silent, elegant and deadly.
Notice how Schanke snatched his hand back out of the handshake?
Gay Eckes raven@r....... gdeckes@i....... gdeckes@c.......
>> Life is short. . . <<
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:40:25 -0400
From: Lisa Prince <Moonlight@g.......>
Subject: Re: Good and evil
I wrote:
>>They are different from you and as an outsider, you look in and
>>place a value judgement on their behavior. It is unfair to the
>>difference of that culture for you to judge them as an outsider.
Nina wrote:
>Congratulations. You've just justified the Holocaust.
Excuse me. No, I did not. This paragraph is at the end of a
rather lengthy post that is discussing the truth or falsehood of
absolutes when dealing with good and evil. I personally don't
believe it is valid to call something *evil* simply because I don't
agreement with what those people happen to be doing. Was the
holocaust evil in my view? Yes. Will I say that it was absolute
evil? No. I am in no way justifying anyone's behavior. I'm
simply saying that I don't believe I or anyone else has the right
to judge and condemn an entire race or culture because of my
personal perceptions of what they are and what they have done.
Intolerance promotes difference which fosters hatred. I personally
believe that hatred of another group or individual is wrong. As
the saying goes, "Forgiveness is divine." In my humble, you cannot
forgive that which you condemn.
True, the Holocaust was a hideous time in history. Do I believe
Hitler was wrong? Yes. Do I believe he deserved to die a hideous
death? Yes. Do I believe he was a vile, disgusting monster that
shouldn't even be called human? Yes. Will I say that I hate him?
No. Will I say that he was evil incarnate? No. Quite simply
because evil is a simplistic term used to define a very complex
situation and it always relates back to point of view. As far as
hate goes, there is enough in this world without my adding to it.
Right or wrong, Hitler and his followers believed in what they were
doing. We can and do condemn them for it, but we can never say
that it was an act of absolute evil because they, as a group, on
some level, did not believe they were doing evil. Absolutes, in my
view, require total agreement that a given action or reaction is
wrong and evil. Does that make their actions right? In my
opinion, no. Does it justify what they did? Not in my eyes. Will
I judge and condemn them? No. As I said in my original post, if,
as Amy says, God is the ultimate judge of evil, he will do the
judging and exact his punishments as he sees fit. I'm certainly
not going to pretend to be God and condemn people out-of-hand
simply because I don't believe in what they are doing. I won't
join in. I will say I think they are wrong. I will not say they
are going to burn in Hell because of it.
>All religions and philosophies make truth claims. One's personal
>refusal to evaluate those claims proves nothing about them.
True, but no one here is refusing to evalute those claims. You
know nothing about me or my religious beliefs. You know nothing
about what I've studied as far as philosophy or religion is
concerned. I find your above statement highly offensive. Besides
which, we are evaluating them. One side says there are absolutes,
the other side says there aren't -- neither side proves anything by
the discussion. Very little outside the realm of science is
proveable. When you get down to religion, philosophy and personal
belief systems, you can throw the idea of proveable right out the
window. The only thing that is gained in discussion is
understanding of the other and acceptance and respect for their
views.
>Moral relativists would do well to consider the honest words of
>one of their spiritual fathers,
Honest words in *your* view. Must everyone agree? Is there no
room for difference of opinion? How boring the world would be if
we all agreed on every little point. I also might mention that
through the ages, religion has been the banner under which many
atrocities have been committed. Anyone remember the Inquisition?
The Witch trials? Religions throughout history have been fraught
with intolerance for that which is different. Burning people
alive, hangings, drownings, stonings, holy wars. Justified holy
wanton cruelty? I don't think so.
>Bertrand Russell: "I cannot see how to refute the arguments for
>the subjectivity of ethical values but I find myself incapable of
>believing that all that is wrong with wanton cruelty is that I
>don't like it."
Okay, since you have given a perfect example of *my* argument
against absolutes concerning evil and good. What exactly is wanton
cruelty? What acts fall under its banner? Will we all agree on
exactly what acts should be in that category? I doubt it. I
believe hunting is showing wanton cruelty to animals. My brother,
several uncles, and a few friends are hunters. We disagree on this
point. But, I certainly don't condemn them as evil incarnate and
tell them they are sinners and must be destroyed. I believe that
killing a murderer when it has been proven that capital punishment
is not a deterrent is murder. Many disagree. Who's right? Who's
wrong? Don't know. All I know is that I personally believe it is
wrong. I do not believe that I or anyone else has the right to
condemn another simply because we disagree with them. If that is
an evil attitude, so be it. I'm evil.
Lisa Prince (Moonlight@g.......) Official Charity Drive Organizer
Please make checks payable to the Pediatric AIDS Foundation
Send to: Lisa Prince, PAF "Forever Knight" Group Charity,
000 Xxxxxxxxxxx Xxxxxx, Xxxxx 000, Xxxxxxx, XX 00000-0000
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:26:28 -0700
From: Jerimi Paul <paul9454@u.......>
Subject: Re: The Fix & other stuff
Ann Lipton questioned and answered:
"Aack ... doesn't anyone agree with me that on FK, merely the state of
being a vampire means you're evil? To me, the ultimate proof's in the crosses.
As long as any vampire is
repelled by crosses, that means that God (on the show) definitively finds
them evil."
I guess I'd never thought of it that way. My own pet theory (I'll pet it
and hug it and feed it and name it "George") is that Nick feels very
guilty (of course) and as a result hates himself and what he is to some
degreee. This causes him to feel 'evil' and 'unworthy' and seeing the
cross reminds him of his own essential evilness. It's his own emotions
that repel him, not anything inherent in the cross itself.
Than again, I'm fairly new to FK canon, so let me know what you think. ;)
-Jerimi--->paul9454@r.......
Rampant Vaquero ~Pre-Vet student in the T.V. series "Real Life"
Keeper of the deranged hamster. No! I didn't say that! Back! AAAHHH!
Soon to be mother of a hopefully kinder, gentler rodent- a rat. ;)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 13:41:10 -0400
From: Cousin LuDia <cuzinlu@s.......>
Subject: SKL Loop
Can someone please tell me who to contact regarding getting on the SKL loop?
YKYBWWWWTMFK when:
Your husband gets his hair cut short like LC and you
start having *vivid* dreams....etc...
Cousin LuDia
Cousin LuDia
Porno for Pyros - the hell with them... Porno for ME!!!
Immortal Beloved, Valentine
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 13:45:42 -0400
From: Cousin LuDia <cuzinlu@s.......>
Subject: I'm baaaaaaccccckkkkkk!!!!!
WOW!
Soo long on digest.... Can't keep up with them all....
Man oh man oh man!
FK: Can someone please let me know who the war leader for the cousins is?
I *really* wanna play war tooooooo....
Cousin LuDia
Porno for Pyros - the hell with them... Porno for ME!!!
Immortal Beloved, Valentine
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:00:34 -0400
From: Apache <lf@c.......>
Subject: for Washington D.C. Folks
In case anyone besides me is a captive of the Pothole Capitol of
the Universe (yes, Pittsburgh, we've stolen the title), as a small mercy
District Cablevision will begin showing the SCI FI channel *tomorrow* on
Channel 43. 8 pm and midnight. holy moly. (of course, the 8 pm
showing is competing with 'Tank Girl' on Showtime, but hey... there's
always midnight).
This means we will at last see a Forever Knight which does not
appear to have Dionne Warwick and/or a host of silicon-inflated empty-eyed
females as an ancillary cast. The mind boggles...
And incidentally, even as I am about to kiss it goodbye, I think
I'll send another thank you note to the nice people at Channel 50 -- they
supported us at NATPE, *called* TriStar before NATPE to ask about FK, and
slipped me a couple useful TriStar names and numbers back in the old, cold
winter. SOS-FK is not over.
Cheers to all,
Apache
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:04:55 -0400
From: Jane Credland <janes@i.......>
Subject: Re: The Fix & other stuff
At 06:17 AM 6/23/96 -0400, Ann Lipton wrote:
>Aack ... doesn't anyone agree with me that on FK, merely the state of being a
>vampire means you're evil?
No-one that I know does. It has been said again and again in the show, and
most recently in Sons of Belial that there is both good and evil in Nick.
The same goes for every vampire and every human. What makes FK so special,
so unique, so thought-provoking is the way it exposes and examines the
shades of grey, rather than trying to paint everything in black and white.
>To me, the ultimate proof's in the crosses. As long as any vampire is
>repelled by crosses, that means that God (on the show) definitively finds
>them evil. And Nick is repelled by crosses always, even if it does get a
>little better over time.
From this comment, I assume that you are christian. This is definitely not
the case for everyone on these lists. The religious beliefs of listfolk
encompass a broad spectrum, including pagan, jewish, christian, buddhist,
agnostic and atheist (to name but a few). Those of us who do not subscribe
to the tenets of christianity do not view the cross as the ultimate symbol
of goodness.
Vampires on FK are repelled by many religious objects: crosses, menorahs
(although we never figured that one out), the religious knife in Blackwing,
etc. As far as I know, over the years that this list has been in existence,
no-one has come up with any reason for this repulsion. Some claim it is
light rejecting darkness; others that it is psychosomatic and purely in the
vampire's head.
The actions of some vampires can be defined as evil, if judged by the same
moral system as humans. A vampire killing a human to feed can be
interpreted as murder and therefore evil. Yet, few humans classify
slaughtering cattle, pigs or sheep for food as murder or evil. It can and
has been argued that, because vampires were once human, they are committing
murder. However, vampires are no longer truly human. Should they be judged
by human standards or by vampiric standards?
Jane (janes@i.......)
Raven ** Immortal Beloved
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. (Robert Frost)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:40:23 -0400
From: Ann Lipton <Iocaste@a.......>
Subject: Question about time frames ....
Anyone have any idea how long LaCroix and Janette were together before Nick
was brought across?
In Fate Worse Than Death, I get the feeling Janette was brought across maybe
two centuries before Nick, but in THF, it sounds more like they weren't
brought across too far apart.
Ann
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:47:28 -0400
From: Ann Lipton <Iocaste@a.......>
Subject: Re: The Fix & other stuff
I wrote:
>To me, the ultimate proof's in the crosses. As long as any vampire is
>repelled by crosses, that means that God (on the show) definitively finds
>them evil. And Nick is repelled by crosses always, even if it does get a
>little better over time.
And Jane Credland wrote:
From this comment, I assume that you are christian. This is definitely not
the case for everyone on these lists. The religious beliefs of listfolk
encompass a broad spectrum, including pagan, jewish, christian, buddhist,
agnostic and atheist (to name but a few). Those of us who do not subscribe
to the tenets of christianity do not view the cross as the ultimate symbol
of goodness.
And I reply:
Actually, I'm Jewish. And, no, I don't believe that christianity is a symbol
of goodness. In fact, I'm rather disappointed that on FK we have never seen a
vampire repelled by any other religious symbol _except_ those associated
directly with the sun. No menorahs or Stars of David, for instance.
My comment about the cross was meant to refer to episodes like "For I Have
Sinned" where Nick explains that crosses burn vampires because "they are the
symbol of the one true light."
I would _love_ it if other religions were treated equally on the show, but
the fact that they are not, to me, suggests even further that the rules of
FK's universe are very black and white, morally. And that's the pathos of
the show -- gray characters in a black and white world.
Ann
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:52:33 -0700
From: Cynthia Hoffman <choff@v.......>
Subject: Re: The Fix & other stuff
Ann Lipton wrote:
> Actually, I'm Jewish. And, no, I don't believe that christianity is a symbol
> of goodness. In fact, I'm rather disappointed that on FK we have never seen a
> vampire repelled by any other religious symbol _except_ those associated
> directly with the sun. No menorahs or Stars of David, for instance.
Actually, we *have* seen that other religious symbols have an effect on
vampires. It has been argued that the menorah in Partners of the Month
gave Nick pause; there were the ritual knives in Blackwing; and there was
the sun symbol in a spoiler protected episode that repelled a vampire as
well.
> I would _love_ it if other religions were treated equally on the show, but
> the fact that they are not, to me, suggests even further that the rules of
> FK's universe are very black and white, morally. And that's the pathos of
> the show -- gray characters in a black and white world.
But I just listed at least three examples that refute your statement.
Other religions *are* treated on the show, mostly with respect as well.
Raven Cynthia
Cynthia Hoffman/choff@v.......
feminism is the radical notion that women are people
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 12:07:57 -0700
From: Elizabeth Ann Lewis <lizbet@p.......>
Subject: Re: Janette evil? -- Spoilers, HF, Francesca
(Fair warning... it is late, and I have injested too much caffeine).
Spoilers for Human Factor and Francesca below. And in leu of spoiler
spaces, I offer a commercial!
START COMMERCIAL
As a member (in heart) of practically every faction (and I have a friend in
the Perkulators--hi Kristina!) I offer myself for hire in the coming War.
I am sneaky, devious, and willing to do anything for peanut butter (sorry,
no CODs (chocolate on demand)). In addition, I will preform truly heinous
acts for caffeine, with the pinnacle of my efforts reserved for cafe latte.
END COMMERCIAL
At 8:52 PM 6/22/96, Cynthia Hoffman wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote in response to Jane's
>request that someone come up with an evil act on Janette's part:
>> The murder of the musician in False Witness (I believe). [snip] (If I
>> am forgetting something in my analysis I am sure it will be pointed out to
>> me, for it has been a while since I have seen that episode.)
>Stepping forward and saluting smartly.
That didn't take long. :)
>That's certainly how Nick saw it.
>No question about it. However, all Janette did was have dinner. She
>thought Nick wanted her for dinner, and decided to taste her first. Her
>line when Nick caught her was "I was wrong; you do have good taste."
Hmm, I think this falls under the "what is good and what is evil" argument.
Nick presumably thought that Janette killing a prize musician for no good
reason was a baaad thing. It had only been about a hundred years since
Nick had killed Francesca for basically the same crime. While, as you say,
Janette was simply having dinner.
I think what is striking about that FB is that it is a very LC action,
killing someone under Nick's nose when it would most likely annoy him.
That Janette does it is interesting.
>Lizbet continues:
>> I much prefer Janette of the present, and am a loyal follower of the
>> Janette who wants her mortality back! :)
>The Janette who wants her mortality back doesn't in fact, exist. She is a
>character who briefly had mortality back and adjusted to it because she's
>a very practical woman.
Darn it, you mean I belong to a faction for a character that doesn't exist?
:) I would agree with you *if* there hadn't been that conversation in the
Raven with LC in which she states that she is having doubts about being a
vampire. If it had come out of the blue, and she had said, "OK, I'm human,
I'll live with it," I'd agree. But she also told Nick *not* to bring her
back, which speaks to a desire to remain human. (Yes, she was under
extreme duress.) :)
>Evil? Perhaps when she plays along with LC in the flashback in Dead Air
>but as others have pointed out, her actions in that case might be about
>self-preservation, just as her actions in Father's Day are about
>self-preservation, finally; and perhaps her actions in DBtLotM and Near
>Death could be construed as selfish, but I doubt they'd be categorically
>evil either.
Actually, I don't agree that Janette is evil. :) But that act in False
Witness is hardly something I would applaud, if for no other reason than
she needlessly killed someone who brought pleasure into her life.
(Although if we use Francesca, it makes a little more sense.)
As for DBTLOTM and Near Death... I happen to think that Nick and Janette
were in love, or at least passionatly in lust before LC brought him over.
There is no evidence that they only met for the first time in the FB of
Dance. So it was not so selfish for her to bring Nick in to her world.
Just MHO.
Lizbet ~~ lizbet@primenet.net |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lizbetann@a....... ~~ HeLLLion, PWFC Member | METHOS!!!!! ~
Survivor of the first Highlander War |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Listowner, Middle Ages Life List |"Arnyd yw Ewyll hyd yw"
http://members.aol.com/Lizbetann/mypage.html | Passion is the will to be
"Being famous is not an entirely unpleasant experience." -- Sting
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Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:08:48 -0400
From: Ekaterina Baliasinskaya <ebaliasi@l.......>
Subject: Re: Good and Evil
Yeah! Right! Has anyone ever thought that we, humans, are not much better
than vampires when it comes to killing? At least they have an excuse for
taking lives - the Hunger. We kill just because we want to, or we "think"
it is nesessary. Just think how many of OUR OWN KIND we managed to
slaughter during the 20th century alone!
I do not think that being a vampire means automatically being evil. Some
humans are much more vicious than the most remorseless bloodsucker. Take
Gering (the SS figure) - to me he is more disgusting than even Divia (at
least she did not send Lacroix to concentration camp, where he'd have to
survive on low iron formula protein shakes!).
As FK fan and just a curious person I think that everything in this
universe is relative and subject to doubt. We all have a certain freedom
of choice, humans and vampires alike, but this freedom comes on different
levels. Depending on your level such absolutes as Good and Evil may
become blurred, or even obsolete as something defined in minds rather than
in the true nature of things.
Take LaCroix. He cannot be labelled evil just because the normes of human
morality do not apply to him anymore! From vampire point of view he is
perfectly normal (well, he is perfectly normal from my point of view
either..).
So, to put the VERY LONG STORY short, my advice would be: Lighten Up, Folks!
There is no answer to the eternal question what is good, and what is not.
It depends on the perspective your looking from.
With regards, Katya
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Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:17:17 -0400
From: Samantha Smiley <MaraJade00@a.......>
Subject: Hello everyone
I have been able to afford my account again and I'm ready to catch up on all
that I have missed. So if some kind soul would enlighten me on whats been
happening since the last episode of the thrid season was shown. Please
contact me offlist. I tried to sign up up on the FKSPOILR list but I got a
message saying that it doesn't exist anymore. Whats happened since I left.
THE WORLD HAS TURNED UPSIDE-DOWN!! Sorry, got a little carried away there.
We'll it's good to be back and I just waiting for the messages to pour in.
Hasta la bye bye!!
Jade (MaraJade00@a.......)- aka Samantha Smiley :)
Used top be former Forever Knightie
Cousin/Merc/Valentine
Waiting to get back into the groove!!!
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Knight graphics and parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/
