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Logfile LOG9606A Part 6

June 4, 1996

File: "FORKNI-L LOG9606A" Part 6

	TOPICS:
	Nat's Car...
	How Long Is the Longest Friendship?
	JK in Michigan Monthly
	Ger's hair, Summer in OtL, & LaCroix's Personality
	An Interesting Night
	LaCroix's Personality  (2)
	Nat Pack Birthdays  (2)
	parental stuff (was: no subject)
	Nick and the Unnameds (again)  (3)
	NatPack birthdays  (2)
	Sad news
	first season parental stuff
	Parental References - First Season
	ALERT: "Francesca" on CFPL NOW!!!
	LC and Incest (Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 3 Jun 1996)
	Correcting myself (was LC and Incest)
	Mail Problems....
	Nick/LC in Trophy Girl
	Morality and Vampires
	Origin of the Quest
	Mummies in

=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 03:00:14 +0500
From:         John Folden <jtfolden@e.......>
Subject:      Nat's Car...

A few days ago I posted a message asking if anyone knew what type of car
Natalie drove in the series(Trivial question, but anyway). Several people
responded but I don't think anyone was sure of the exact model.

I just got done re-watching Episode #204 "Bad Blood" and noticed she drove
an Oldsmobile Cutlass Cierra. Of course, at the end of the episode the
car was destroyed in a fire and she was waiting for a reimbursment check
(according to Cohen). I guess, I'll have to slowly continue watching old
episodes to see what she bought!

This isn't important info (except maybe to a few fanfic writers) but I just
thought I'd post it in case I got anyone else with a warped mind wondering.


//----------------------------------------
// John T. Folden, a demented victorian
// lost in the DARK SHADOWS of an endless
// FOREVER KNIGHT...
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 03:56:15 -0400
From:         Deborah Bender <DBendr@a.......>
Subject:      How Long Is the Longest Friendship?

      I only have time to read this list sporadically, so I hope I'm not
replowing old furrows. Also, if anyone who is conversant with obsolete
versions of AOL Mac software or Word 5.0 can tell me how to shorten my line
length (other than by hand), please let me know and I will be a better
citizen.
     When we discuss the nature of LC and Nick's relationship, and how the
characters themselves feel about it, it helps to have historical perspective.
Both of these vampires' emotional natures were formed when they were mortal,
in societies that were different from each other and from the society we live
in. We all know this, but we sometimes forget that words like "friend", "son"
and "lover" have very different emotional connotations to people if the
social structures and arrangements supporting them are different.
      The first time (in broadcast order) that Nick talks about his
relationship with Nick is in DK chapter 1, to Alyce Hunter. He says, "LaCroix
was my master. It's difficult to explain." There is a hint here that there
was something in their relationship that the word "master" does not
adequately express.
     The first time (in broadcast order) that LC talks about his relationship
with Nick is in DK c2, when Nick follows him into the abbatoir. LC speaks
briefly but eloquently, and my recollection is that his opening words are,
"How long is the longest friendship?'
     At the time, we had no knowledge about LC's origins, but these words are
perfectly in character with what we later find out. It has been pointed out
by many writers, most recently by Thomas Cahill in __How the Irish Saved
Civilization__, that friendship between men was a far more important
relationship in the civilizations of antiquity than it is today. It was, in
fact, the most prestigious social relationship--more highly valued than
marriage, which was basically an economic arrangement; heterosexual romantic
love, viewed as a debasing self-indulgence; devotion to the gods, which was
obligatory; or devotion to society as a whole, which political conditions did
not allow. The only social relation viewed with as much respect as male
friendship was the relationship between parent and child, and friendship was
more interesting because it contained an element of choice. Male friendships
were celebrated in song and story, held up for admiration and fantasy, in the
same way that heterosexual romantic love is today. Friends were expected to
be friends for life, to remain friends despite distance and changes in
fortune, and to die for each other if need be  Friends were emotionally and
physically intimate. Whether that intimacy was sexual or not (which varied
from society to society and very likely from pair to pair), it must certainly
have had an erotic element.
       Although male friendship was not the bond __par excellence__ for
medievals, it was held in high regard. Warrior cultures encourage male
bonding. The popular literature of Nick's time included het love stories,
which always ended tragically, but they also included the tales of David and
Jonathan and Hector and Achilles (which also ended tragically, come to think
of it).  All relationships in the middle ages were personal, most of them
were unequal, and many involved performing physical service upon the body of
the superior member of the relationship. Although we think that human nature
does not change,  lust, physical intimacy and emotional attachment turned up
in different permutations for thirteenth century people than they do for us.


<<Diane Echelbarger writes:
>Nick is far too obviously still a product of his 13th century Catholic
>upbringing, and because of that it's very unlikely he'd view the
>possibility of a homosexual relationship with *anyone* as anything
>but horrifying.>>

      That can be debated. The preachers of the time dwelled much more on the
danger and uncleanliness of heterosexual lust (even within marriage!), how
Eve's sin had condemned all humankind and how seductresses were continually
luring men into sinks of filthy iniquity, etc. The average person, who wasn't
very well schooled in the tenets of Christianity anyway, may have thought of
homosexual acts as minor sins like gluttony or cursing. There's a famous and
controversial gay historian (John somebody?) who wrote a book called
Christianity and Social Tolerance which asserts that the early middle ages
(before the 13th century) didn't see much wrong with homosexual acts at all.
My impression is that Christendom did not start obsessing over homosexual
behavior until the Inquisition got underway, more than a century after Nick
was brought across.
      I think it is __certain__ that Nick witnessed homosexual acts as a
mortal, and very possible that he participated in them, not necessarily with
full consent or enthusiasm. He was brought up on a manor, associating daily
with stableboys and grooms, huntsmen and fletchers and armorers, serving men,
the smith and the carpenter, the miller and the cooper, the priest or the
clerk, to say nothing of villeins and serfs. People of all ranks in the
middle ages had very little privacy. Nick must have been an exceptionally
handsome and perhaps girlish looking boy. And then he joined the army, which
had plenty of camp followers to be sure, but sometimes a man doesn't have the
coin or the inclination to seek them out.
       We should also bear in mind that although homosexual activiy has been
around since time immemorial, the social category of a homosexual __person__
did not exist until it was created by Victorian scientists. People could and
did engage in homoerotic behavior and even homosexual intercourse without
thinking of themselves as "homosexual". Some still do. I am told that in some
Latin cultures, a man can receive oral sex from another man without impairing
his machismo; it is only giving it (playing the part of the woman) that is
stigmatized. Colleen McCullough says that the Romans thought the same way.
        I highly recommend Lillian Federman's book, Surpassing the Love of
Men, about nineteenth century female romantic friendships. Romantic
friendship is another social category we have lost. It was apparently
commonplace among English speaking women to form passionate attachments,
write love letters, and caress one another, without anyone (including these
women's husbands) thinking that the women were involved in a sexual
relationship.

Deborah Bender    DBendr@a.......
Beyond Wicca 101: The Witches Trine. Email me for subscription info
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:08:07 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Duemling" <nancyd@p.......>
Subject:      JK in Michigan Monthly

Reading an article in the Michigan Monthly this morning, about a
couple of guys who went to California to present Tim Allen with a
plaque from the Michigan legislature.  In the article, by Ivan
Helfman, is the following:

Also rehearsing was comic character actor John Capelos (sic, darn
it!), an old friend of Scofes.  Scofes lived in Chicago when Capelos
was a member of Second City, the well-known Windy City comic troupe.
"Capelos was also appearing in an episode of ER, so he took us to the
Warner's lot to meet George Clooney," Scofes said.

Well, there's no such thing as bad publicity, just poor spelling,
right?

Nancy D., Knightie and DueSer (nancyd@p.......)
   Visit our web site at http://www.msen.com/~duemling/
Nick Knight, Benton Fraser, Ray Vecchio and Brisco County, Jr.
   What is it with me and law abiding guys???
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:11:25 -0300
From:         "l.d. steele" <aa300@f.......>
Subject:      Ger's hair, Summer in OtL, & LaCroix's Personality

(combining messages is a <good> thing! <g>)

> From:    Carolyn Brown <Carolyn772@a.......>
> What color is Ger's hair in Real Life?  In the show it appears to be
> everything from dark blonde to purple <g>, depending on the lighting.
> Carolyn

Speaking from the viewpoint of someone with personal experience, a brief
person-to-person glance, and pictures... I'd have to say dark brown with
blond hightlights. This type of hair lightens in the summers, espescially
if the hair is kept short.

Depending on the lighting situations and clothing, it <can> appear
anywhere from blond to dark brown. <g> Most people describe Nick as being
blond in fanfic.

Anyone with more personal experience with GWD is welcome to correct me. :)

------------------------------
> On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Susan M. Garrett wrote:
> > OBFK: In OTL, Nick wakes up on Nat's table on her birthday.  The calendar
> > on the lab wall says JUNE.  So why is it, when they finally get down to
> > continuity in the last couple eps (no spoilers please), that they get THIS
> > wrong?

> From:    Beth Brown <BKBVA@a.......>
> Works for me.  The only problem I had with it was that in OTL, it was clearly
> warm weather, as everyone was walking around without a coat.  Having just
> been in Toronto in late April, there's *no way* it could have been that warm!
> <g>  ]
> Torontonians are welcome to correct me if that was unusual weather.

Again, <real> Torontonians are welcome to correct me, but I live in S.
Ontario for two years. It <is> within the realm of possibility to have
that nice whether by April 18th. April 1st? Probably not, but I'm willing
to stretch it.

I found that S. Ontario (which includes Toronto) has a very short spring
that occurs late April. Everything turns green, the temperature can shoot
up to the twenties (Celcius of course! Fahrenheit? ?? 70 ?). Given the
summer clothes and activities that was going on in the background... It
<within> the realms of possibility that they were having an unusually
early spring.

I would have been happier if they put it even a half-month later though. :)

-----------------------------------
I love the "things that LC does, but would never admit to" thread. :)

>Lisa P <LadysAVamp@a.......> suggested (paraphrasing)
> All the Disney movies. Which is his favourite?

I'd have to go with "Sleeping Beauty", just for the sheer magnificence of
the antagonist. I've watched a few Disney movies lately (don't ask), and
... UGH some of the "unintended messages" are quite awful to see, BUT I
can still watch "Sleeping Beauty" just for that scene where she turns
into a dragon!

More things:
45) evening Mini-golf

78) wearing white clothes

111) forgets his large ring in odd countries, and then has to go back in
order to get it!

234) having the special, complete edition of "the sound of music". <-Lurkers!

333) Watching Sesame Street

555) Flying into electic poles while in the middle of a 2000-yr-old
flashback

more please! :)

Dawn
l.d. steele
h36a@u....... or aa300@f.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:01:17 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      An Interesting Night

Could someone send me the story "An Interesting Night"?  I don't know who it
was by, or when it was posted, or even what I'm doing awake at 6 AM, but if
someone could send this to me, I'd 'preciate it!

(tippinb@i.......)

Wicked Cousin Tippi, Dollar Bill Wrangler of the Thong Throng!
*Voyeur of the Menage LaCroix*Founding Member: Unnamed Faction*
"I've got a hamster in my pants, and I think I like it."
  - something Nick didn't say in an episode that never existed
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:59:25 -0400
From:         "J.A. Stafford" <KnightGal@a.......>
Subject:      Re: LaCroix's Personality

All I can say is, I'm having as much fun as everyone else, but, dear me!  I'm
going to have to be careful how I ask these questions!!!!!

Cousin J
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:59:49 -0400
From:         Jane Credland <janes@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Nat Pack Birthdays

At 12:37 AM 6/4/96 -0400, Beth Brown wrote:

>Works for me.  The only problem I had with it was that in OTL, it was clearly
>warm weather, as everyone was walking around without a coat.  Having just
>been in Toronto in late April, there's *no way* it could have been that warm!

Actually, it is possible to walk around without a coat in Toronto in late
April.  The weekend before everyone came up for Taming of the Shrew, I was
doing just that.  The temperature dropped into the basement just in time for
y'all to visit.

Keep in mind, of course, that when you've been through a Toronto winter,
even 18c (about 67F) seems balmy.

Jane   (janes@i.......)
Raven ** Immortal Beloved ** M.B.D.T.K
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams
[W.B. Yeats}
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:28:58 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      Re: parental stuff (was: no subject)

Sandra wrote:

>I don't have any specific quotes from any of TPTB about the relationship
>between Nick and LC.  My comments are just my opinions as based upon a
>viewing of the episodes.

While I certainly don't think TPTB went out of their way to emphasize an
*amorous* relationship, I don't think they went out of their way to quash it
either. ;)  I mean, I came into FK about halfway through the 2nd season, and
it seemed right away like a love affair gone bad.

Apache posted a snippet from an interview a few days ago about the purposely
suggestive direction of Killer Instinct (2md season, I think, right?).
Maybe it wasn't explicitly written in the script ("LaCroix makes a
suggestive movement toward Nick"), but the director directed it that way and
the actors played it that way.  Consciously. :)  (Be kind of hard to do
anything while unconscious!)  The director, whoever he/she was, was employed
by TPTB, and a real good way to not get hired again is to go against TPTB's
wishes.

>almost felt to me that with LC's return, someone decided that they
>wanted it pounded into viewers' heads that this was a *father and son*
>relationship.  This is just my opinion but maybe there was some concern
>that a homosexual tone to the relationship would lose viewers and <snip>

That could be true, too.  At least to some extent.  I don't think it was
ever completely cut out, though.  A lot of people who came in during the
second season, without ever having seen the 1st (like me), still saw the
sensual/sexual tension.

> The increased emphasis on the father/son stuff smacks of
>"thou doth protest too much", imo. :)

Well, yes. ;)  Sometimes folks go the other extreme and only end up coming
full circle!

Wicked Cousin Tippi, Dollar Bill Wrangler of the Thong Throng!
*Voyeur of the Menage LaCroix*Founding Member: Unnamed Faction*
"We skipped those lessons, didn't we?" LC to NK, discussing how to
stitch a blind hem during Home Ec. class.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:39:36 -0500
From:         TippiNB <Tippinb@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick and the Unnameds (again)

Sandra wrote:

>As Tippi said, not everyone views that scene that way.  I didn't,
>mainly because of the long head-to-toe, sensual look at Nick that LC
>gave Nick when he neared him.

Yes!  See, now, this is exactly the "look" that convinced me even during the
2nd season that there was something *more* to the relationship.  LC is quite
proficient at this head-to-toe look, and lavishes it on Nick quite
frequently.  (Alternating sometimes with the languid eyes-to-mouth look.) If
he'd been looking at a woman that way, there would be no doubt in most
people's minds that he was looking at them in a sensual manner.  Most
parents don't look at their children that way.

>I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is *not* a parent-child
>aspect to the relationship between LC and Nick.  It's just that some
>people see more levels of interaction than that.  There's the friend
>and brother aspects, for examples.

Precisely!  This is the single most complex relationship in FK or any other
TV show I've seen.  It has more facets than the Hope Diamond.

>Yes, and that is another aspect of their relationship, which is also
>stated in very literal terms by Nick in the flashback of Killer
>Instinct.

I've *really* got to see Killer Instinct.  Still trying to find it in my tapes.

>LC.  It's also is apparent that Nick suffered much emotional abuse by
>LC (although LC may not have seen it that way), perhaps to an extent
>that Nick felt a bit "rootless" with LC "dead".

Well even I, Cousin that I am, won't claim that LC is Father of the Year. At
least not in traditional terms.  Let's just say Nick won't be buying him a
Hallmark Card for Father's Day. ;)

>We've seen Nick in flashbacks with just LC, but rarely have
>we seen Nick *alone* with Janette in a flashback.  This may be an
>indication that LC was more influential in Nick's life than Janette.

This was something else I've noticed.  LC and NK and often together in the
1st season flashbacks and Janette is nowhere to be seen.  The only Nick and
Janette sans LC scene I remember off the top of my head is in If Looks Could
Kill.  Janette appears briefly with the Baronness and Nick is there.  Most
of the time, though, Nick, LC and Janette seemed to be a threesome (and I
don't mean that in the sexual way!).

Wicked Cousin Tippi, Dollar Bill Wrangler of the Thong Throng!
*Voyeur of the Menage LaCroix*Founding Member: Unnamed Faction*
"We skipped those lessons, didn't we?" LC to NK, discussing how to
stitch a blind hem during Home Ec. class.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 06:02:41 -0700
From:         Sharon Himmanen <romana@i.......>
Subject:      NatPack birthdays

Thank you all kindly for the birthday wishes yesterday.

As for the date for Nat's birthday given in "Last Knight":  They goofed and
didn't check w/ OtL or us.  The scan of her address book later in OtL blows
the 14th as a possible date anyway.  Her birthday is in June.

My favorite reason for denying that it's April 14th came frome Jamie I
think, who, when she saw that shook her head and said, "No way Nat's an Aries."

Works for me <g>.

I'm leaving it up as June 24th on the NatPack page.  Amy Hull's explanation
of why it's June 24th is just too charming to waste.

Sharon

--
Sharon A. Himmanen * romana@i....... * romana@a.......
NatPack ** BotCoS ** Keeper of the GopherGame
Nat's B&B     http://members.aol.com/romana/natpage_stuff/natpack.htm
SOS-FK        http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html
"You can sleep anytime.  How often to you get to have a beer with me?"
--unattributed quote
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:09:57 -0400
From:         Will Steeves <goid@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Sad news

MARG YAMANAKA <ZEZQ01A@p.......> writes...
>It is with regret that I inform you that the "Forever Knight" sign that
>graced the entrance of the production studios is no longer there.


Oh...and here I thought that this news had already been disseminated?

If I had known that people didn't know about it, I'd have mentioned it two
weeks ago.

To wit: the day after Last Knight, I was giving The Tour (tm) to Brenda
Clarke, our party's Very Special Guest from Syracuse...and we noticed to our
eternal chagrin that the Forever Knight sign had been _covered over with glue_
(or so it appeared) by the sign for Nick Gray's new show, "The Wrong Guy".

Ugh.

W.

---
Will Steeves, B.Sc. (Toronto, 1991), goid@i....... - "Neil Hull is GOiD"
Publisher & Managing Editor, The New Edition (U of T); Nu '96, Psi Upsilon
Ontario Area Coordinator, FREE (http://www.vix.com/free)

If possession is 9/10 of the law, what's the other 1/10? - Steeves' Laws Vol. I
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:12:38 -0500
From:         Carrie Krumtum <carriek@e.......>
Subject:      Re: LaCroix's Personality

Lisa P. wrote:

> #?? He has the entire collection of Walt Disney movies.
>
> Can you guess what his favorite would be?

My vote would be the Aristocats. All those fun tunes to memorize and
dance to. Hehehehehehe....

--
Carrie, Proud Knightie
The Nurse is a hampster
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:23:46 -0500
From:         Carrie Krumtum <carriek@e.......>
Subject:      Re: first season parental stuff

Sandra Gray wrote:

>I don't recall as much emphasis being placed
>on the father/son relationship in first season.  Does anyone recall
>any dialogue or commentary in this regard from first season episodes

I would say that there wasn't any such emphasis because Nick and LaCroix
were no longer contemporaries. LaCroix was supposed to be dead. He only
existed in flashbacks, and since the flashbacks were all from Nick's
POV, they wouldn't hold that kind of emphasis anyway. It's not until
Killer Instinct, the season two opener, that we find out LaCroix is not
dead and there is any contemporary interaction between the two
characters.

:)=
--
Carrie, Proud Knightie
The Nurse is a hampster
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:15:30 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Parental References - First Season

At 06:46 PM 6/3/96 -0500, Sandra Gray wrote:

>I don't recall as much emphasis being placed
>on the father/son relationship in first season.  Does anyone recall
>any dialogue or commentary in this regard from first season episodes

In Dark Knight, the pilot episode, the very first episode, when Nick was
telling Natalie about LaCroix, he said, "He's like a father or a brother."
In the same episode, on the radio, LaCroix referred to Nick as, "My brother,
my child."

Also, I think that in the Canadian version of I Will Repay, Janette says
to Nick about LaCroix, "He was your father.  He loved you."

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
N&NPacker
Cousin of the Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:31:21 -0400
From:         Will Steeves <goid@i.......>
Subject:      Re: ALERT: "Francesca" on CFPL NOW!!!

Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@f.......> writes:
>For folks who unfortunately got "Francesca Doe" from WKBW a few weeks ago,

...ugh.  I _still_ remember that.


>you now have a second chance! CFPL channel 10 London (Roger's Cable 21 in
>Hamilton) is showing "Francesca" RIGHT NOW!!! If you can get your tape in the
>VCR before 10:30, you can get the last half of the show.


Blatant Guilt Tripping Ahead...  :-)

Now, now, Dalton, if you'd come out to the Toronto Contingent's Post
Shrewthering / Last Knight Party, you'd have have seen the _whole_ episode,
courtesy of Brenda, our Very Special Guest from Syracuse.  :-)

We probably could have worked _something_ out, to pick you up from Hamilton!
Besides, we even had two Very Special Guests from London.  (Now who am I
kidding here?  ALL of the guests were Very Special Guests!)

And yes, we'd all have gotten to meet you, one our area's relatively new
"newbies"  (we're _assuming_ that you're a newbie, that is...although some of
your fan fiction ideas almost sound like Don Bassingthwaite's ....
Coincidence?  Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....).

Cheers,
Cousin Will

---
Will Steeves, B.Sc. (Toronto, 1991), goid@i....... - "Neil Hull is GOiD"
Publisher & Managing Editor, The New Edition (U of T); Nu '96, Psi Upsilon
Ontario Area Coordinator, FREE (http://www.vix.com/free)

If possession is 9/10 of the law, what's the other 1/10? - Steeves' Laws Vol. I
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:38:07 -0400
From:         TJ Goldstein <vanguard@p.......>
Subject:      LC and Incest (Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 3 Jun 1996)

Donna G. Albrecht wrote:

> Finally, I believe LC had the final word on his feelings about incest when
> Divia tried to seduce him and had her head detached for her troubles.

Which is pretty ironic, actually, since in his time it was not only
acceptable, but encouraged.  (I missed the whole AtA discussion.  Sorry
if that's been beaten to death.)

----  TJ
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:04:11 -0300
From:         Stapleton <d7ux@u.......>
Subject:      Re: Nat Pack Birthdays

> I say that's a good date because it's also my birthday. :)
> As for why the calendar in OTL said June...well maybe Nat was looking
> ahead at something when Nick's body was wheeled in and distracted, she
> neglected to turn it back to the right month - April.

I'd have to disagree. I've been to Toronto in April and June (different
years) and the weather that was shown in TO in LK was not June (OTL). In
Only The Lonely, her birthday was in June (Calender), the day
before she went to the Toronto Islands (or possibly in the Beaches
area) with Roger for a lunch break. Although April does have a fair amount
of sunshine, it does not often lend itself to the temps indicated by kids
wearing shorts (OTL). Now if that sounds rather confusing, I apologize.
But I still consider Nat's b'day to be in June.

Lynn Stapleton
d7ux@u.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:07:48 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick and the Unnameds (again)

At 02:53 AM 6/4/96 -0500, Sandra Gray wrote:

>I thought LC exhibited symptoms of jealousy when watching Nick and
>Nat kiss in Be My Valentine.

Yes, I thought he did too.  Given what that episode was about, I saw that
as jealousy that Nick had a romantic relationship, and he (LC) didn't.

>....another aspect of their relationship, which is also
>stated in very literal terms by Nick in the flashback of Killer
>Instinct.  When LC tells Nick he is "my protege", Nick replies "Your
>slave."  And this was not long after Nick was brought over.

I believe, in fact, it was right after Nick was brought over.  After
Nick's reply, LC says, "If you are my slave, I am yours also."  Then he
says something like, "I will teach you all I know."  Nick may see the
relationship as Master-Slave at that point, but LC doesn't.

>....Nick's *desparate fear* that LC has *left* him when LC is training him
>to find him by "vibrations" (those invisible vampire ties between them).

Kind of like the fear a young child has of being abandoned by his parents.

>Nick has been able over the centuries to resist LC's control and eventually
>break away from it to a large degree.

This is something a child does as he grows up.

>But early on, LC called the shots and if LC had wanted to take sexual
>advantage of Nick, I don't think Nick would have been able to put up a lot
>of resistance.

I don't think Nick would have been able to either, but I don't see LC as
someone who would force a sexual relationship on his child.

>The attitude projected in the "tracking by vibration" scene is that Nick
>is totally dependent on LC.

Young children _are_ totally dependent on their parents.

>And LC tries very hard to keep Nick that way over the centuries too.  Why
is this so?  He has not kept other children he's made under his thumb

Nick is his favorite.  There are parents who try to keep their kids dependent
on them.  They often use a lot of manipulative tricks to do it.  It doesn't
mean they don't love their kids, far from it, but it isn't right,
nevertheless.

>It also seems that his relationship with LC has been his strongest
>connection to another vampire.

The relationship with the parent normally is a person's strongest connection,
at least until the person grows up.

>Finally, I have to say that a "parent-child" relationship does not
>necessarily negate a sexual relationship.  Sadly, even among mortals,
>some parents sexually abuse their children.

That's true.  Some parents do.  But that's the difference here.  I don't
see LC as a sex abuser.

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
N&NPacker
Cousin of the Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:26:34 -0400
From:         TJ Goldstein <vanguard@p.......>
Subject:      Correcting myself (was LC and Incest)

Donna G. Albrecht wrote:

> Finally, I believe LC had the final word on his feelings about incest when
> Divia tried to seduce him and had her head detached for her troubles.

I had said that in LC's time it was acceptable, but I have been kindly
disabused of that notion by Cynthia, who points out the distinction
between having sex with children (OK) and having sex with one's OWN
children (very NOT OK) in Roman times.

----  TJ
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:45:39 -0400
From:         dotti rhodes <dottir@w.......>
Subject:      Mail Problems....

Hi gang....hate to waste bandwidth but just in case anyone send me anything
over the past couple of days (sigh) my server changed over mail servers and
I know for a fact I lost 182 messages this morning and couldn't get on at
all yesterday.  They have assured me this is over (I'll see it when I
believe it) but just in case anyone sent me anything important, I'm not
being a pain...I just lost all my mail...again.

ObFK: I just read something in Entertainment Weekly  that because of the
quick demise of that "other" show, vampires are out now in the land of tv
and mummies are in....oh, brother. That just might make our crusade a little
more difficult.  Anyone know how the numbers are right now on Sci-Fi for
viewership of FK since it's been there?

Dotti R
Knightie 4-Ever
dottir@w.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:41:53 -0500
From:         Mad Hatter <cli7@s.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick and the Unnameds (again)

At 10:07 AM 6/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>I thought LC exhibited symptoms of jealousy when watching Nick and
>>Nat kiss in Be My Valentine.
>
>Yes, I thought he did too.  Given what that episode was about, I saw that
>as jealousy that Nick had a romantic relationship, and he (LC) didn't.

i thought it was for Nick's interference with LC's possible relationship
with Nick's mortal sister (as i recall, Nick prevented LC to bring her across)_
and somewhere in there LC said he'd get his revenge [for taking away
his love] .

-mdht
<cli7@s.......>
"i shall continue to be an impossible person
so long as those who are now possible remain possible."
-michael bakunin [1814-76]
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:40:57 -0700
From:         LC Fenster <lucienlc@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick/LC in Trophy Girl

Raissa and several others have observed:

>LC licks blood on his finger after taking it off Nick's face in the
>flashback sequence of Trophy Girl.

Listmembers, particularly in the UF, might be interested to know that
in a certain actor's copy of the Trophy Girl script, at the scene
involving the above particularly *erotic* encounter, are the
handwritten words "lick face?"

Wonder if they ever seriously considered filming it that way.  Would
certainly have been ... interesting.

Laurie and Cynthia
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:46:05 -0500
From:         Mad Hatter <cli7@s.......>
Subject:      Re: Morality and Vampires

At 04:26 PM 6/3/96 -0500, you wrote:
>> Nick rejects all vampire behavior?  I haven't seem him reject flying, or the
>> ability to hypnotize, or the drinking of blood (albeit cow's blood), or
>> superstrength, or keen hearing...
<schnip>
>Anyway, I think it was very clear in first season that Nick wanted to
>avoid using all vampire abilities, although he rarely succeeded.
>Unfortunately for continuity, by third season, there had been almost a
>complete about-face on the show about such things
>Sarah

Nick may reject the state; but yes, there's some inconsistency
[blame it on short show mortality, perhaps]
i thought it was an interesting method of redemption:
to redeem himself for being a vampire and doing what a
vampire does, he uses those vampire powers to eventually
remove himself from being a vampire . .

-mdht
<cli7@s.......>
"i shall continue to be an impossible person
so long as those who are now possible remain possible."
-michael bakunin [1814-76]
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:06:55 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      Origin of the Quest

(moving this over from the spoiler list....)

On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Lisa P. wrote:
> vampire for very long.  Poor Nick, it took approx. 300 years to lose his
> vampiric virginity...and his wife, all in one night.

Actually, I would consider bringing someone across more analogous to
having a child, and first feeding as more analogous to first sex, but it
is interesting to note that Janette, by her own admission in IWR, has
never brought anyone over (yes, that story explaining the Baroness is
coming...).  (And while we're on the topic, do we know of *any* of Nick's
children who aren't dead, <excepting any spoilers>?)

But what I want to point to is that 300 year factor.  Nick stopped
killing entirely at Sylvaine's death (LYTD) and hasn't killed (darn USA!)
for a hundred years.  In LYTD, LC snipes at Nick for his "code of the
past three hundred years," of killing only the "guilty.  Therefore, Nick
instituted that code not too long after Alyssa's death.

Yes, Nick has regretted his choice from the beginning, but during his
early years, and particularly his century with Janette, he was able to
suppress his doubts and give himself over to the vampire.  Then Janette
left him, he married Alyssa, probably on the rebound, accidentally killed
her, and, within a century, instituted his "code."  As far as I know, we
were never given a solid beginning to that "code," as we were to the end
of killing and, presumably, the beginning of cow blood, in LYTD.  I may be
knotting strings that had better hang singly, but it seems logical to
trace the beginning of Nick's tortured guilt not only to Alyssa's death,
but to Janette leaving him.  He tends to instinctively rebel against LC
and conform to Janette, and with her gone at that critical juncture....
Thoughts?

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
** Knightie *** Light Cousin *** Fleur-Booster **
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:13:59 EDT
From:         Lisa McDavid <D020214@v.......>
Subject:      Mummies in

Ok, so we'll pitch the networks a spin-off about Divia's Master, who
might well have been mummiform at some point. :)

Cousin Lisa -- "That will be trouble."
Lisa McDavid
mcdavid-lisa@s.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:15:55 GMT
From:         Jamie Melody Randell <immajer@n.......>
Subject:      Re: NatPack birthdays

On Jun 04, 1996 06:02:41, 'Sharon Himmanen <romana@i.......>' wrote:


>
>My favorite reason for denying that it's April 14th came frome Jamie I
>think, who, when she saw that shook her head and said, "No way Nat's an
>Aries."


Well, she ISN'T.  That's all there is to it.

<shakes head, folds arms, looks stubborn> So there.


--
 -:-:-:-:- Jamie M.R. <immajer@n.......> -:-:-:-:-
 Asst. Listowner, The Smoking Natpacker, ConvCoS, NDNEDnik
-->>> Illustrated Webgoddess & Keeper of Warm Fuzzies <<<--
** List Rules <http://cac.psu.edu/~jap8/FK/FKRules.html> **
The Truth Is Out There. Just maybe not in our jurisdiction.
=========================================================================

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