FORKNI-L
Digest - 22 Jul 2006 to 23 Jul 2006 (#2006-196)
Sun, 23 Jul 2006
There are 6 messages totalling 286 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned (Stonetree) (2)
2. Stonetree inquiry (3)
3. Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:22:04 -0400
From: Debbie Clarke <dittany121@h.......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned (Stonetree)
I agree. Nick was getting close to being personal in his interrogation.
Stonetree probably could feel his antipathy towards Father Rochfort
building in the air.
It was also one of those times where I wondered what Stonetree knew about
Nick.
Debbie
>From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
>it
>seemed pretty obvious that Nick's behavior stems from
>some personal issues dealing with the Catholic church.
>
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:22:26 -0400
From: Debbie Clarke <dittany121@h.......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned (Stonetree)
I agree. Nick was getting close to being personal in his interrogation.
Stonetree probably could feel his antipathy towards Father Rochfort
building in the air.
It was also one of those times where I wondered what Stonetree knew about
Nick, since he didn't sound too angry with him afterwards,
Debbie
>From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
>it
>seemed pretty obvious that Nick's behavior stems from
>some personal issues dealing with the Catholic church.
>
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 10:18:51 -0400
From: Cheryl <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Stonetree inquiry
Does anyone know Stonetree's first name, if it was ever mentioned?
Thanks. Stay safe.
Cheryl / fknight420@c.......
'Angus Grady; The Beginning--available in
bookstores nationwide.
Don't trade a treasure
for an empty box.
ForeverKnight.5u.com
AngusGrady.50megs.com
BradleyFarley.50megs.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 21:20:18 -0400
From: Joe LaCour <joelacour@c.......>
Subject: Re: Stonetree inquiry
Does anyone know Stonetree's first name, if it was ever mentioned?
Thanks. Stay safe.
Cheryl / fknight420@c.......
Joe?????
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Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:23:24 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: Stonetree inquiry
> Does anyone know Stonetree's first name, if it was ever mentioned?
He's called Joe in Dying to Know You and Dead Issue.
Here's some other Stonetree facts:
STONETREE, CAPT. JOE (Gary Farmer)
Capt. of 27th Precinct. First name is Joe (Dying to Know You, Dead Issue). Eats
Kleenex when he's worried (Dark Knight 1). Lives in an apartment (Dance by the
Light of the Moon). Lost a partner & major influence, Billy Wisdom, in 1978
when he was shot & killed by a parolee (Hunters). Won an accordion-playing
competition at the Hapsburg Festival in 1988, for the polka; the trophy is on
his bedroom dresser (Dance by the Light of the Moon). His son sewed Stonetree's
suit in school (False Witness). Close friend of Insp. Tony Fiore, who Knight
discovered had killed his wife's (i.e. Fiore's) lover; Fiore later shot,
pistol-whipped, & kidnapped Stonetree (Dead Issue). Also shot by a
hostage-taker in the precinct offices; hit in the arm & "meat" of the
midsection
(1966). Has at least three trophies in his office (Dead Issue). Married (Dead
Issue).
Quotes: "You saw Knight pull the perpetrator out the window, right? And _you_
weren't on crack."
"Nothing is obvious in this investigation, or there wouldn't *be* an
investigation!" (Spin Doctor)
Likes: Neil Diamond (Dying for Fame)
Dislikes:
Blood type: Unknown
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 05:08:16 -0400
From: gwatson2 <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
> Stonetree is definitely someone who will have to pick up the
> pieces from a complaint about unprofessional behavior or bad press about
> police "attacking" a Roman Catholic priest who was "simply trying to
> help a member of his parish".
I'm sure Tim is right about this. In fact, even if Rochefort didn't go to
the media himself, he'd be almost bound to tell one of his superiors who'd
make a complaint--probably a formal complaint to the police authorities, as
well as a stink in the press.
However, there is a counterargument here. Who, after all, is the "member of
his parish" whom Rochefort is "simply trying to help"? The murderer, I
assume?
Now, there's no doubt that, if one were dealing with a regular type of
killer--say the wife-killer example that Rochefort uses when talking to his
older colleague--and it's *after* the fact (i.e. the murder has already been
committed), then Rochefort's primary responsibility has to be to the man
making confession to him. After all, most murderers don't repeat their
crime. The victim would be dead; and there'd be nothing Rochefort could do
about it.
But that's not the case here. I mean, despite the fact that the guy in
the confessional has murdered already, there is a significant difference:
this guy does definitely plan to kill again. So, when asking advice,
Rochefort uses the example of a man who says that he is *planning* to kill
his wife.
What Rochefort doesn't seem to see (or maybe does, except that he daren't
get too similar) is that that his example is not really truly parallel to
the situation he is faced with in "For I Have Sinned".
A man who is angry at his wife might *think* of killing her--maybe even
make wishful plans--but that doesn't meant that he will actually follow
through. Murder in hot blood--an angry blow--is another matter: that's the
situation where the guy would be confessing *after* the fact. But, when
asking advice, Rochefort uses the example of someone merely confessing that
he is making *plans* to murder his wife.
When push comes to shove, most people don't find it all that easy to
carry murder out in cold blood. Hot blood, yes: but people planning murder
in advance often get cold feet when it comes right down to doing the deed.
Okay, not all, obviously. But it is only natural that the older priest
would tell Rochefort not to go to the police. In such a case as he
describes, his proper job is to get the prospective killer to change his
mind. Persuade him into family counselling, maybe. After all, the murder
hasn't been committed yet: there's time to talk the guy round.
Serial killers are a different breed. Rochefort is not dealing here with a
man who has fantasies of killing (whom he should counsel to get help), nor
is it a one-off killer (whom he should counsel to turn himself in). This is
someone who actively intends to kill again, and whom Rochefort has every
reason to believe will actually do so.
Ethically, therefore, Rochefort is in a different position. The one
hand is unchanged: you still have the Catholic church's position on the
inviolability of the confessional. But the other hand is *not* what his
wife-killer example suggests: if the police don't catch the killer, someone
*will* die. (The only reason that doesn't happen in "For I Have Sinned" is
because Nick catches the guy, which isn't exactly something that Rochefort
has a right to count on.)
Now *if* Rochefort does indeed know the identity of the killer--say by
recognising the guy's voice in the confessional--then he has the opportunity
to save the next victim's life. If he doesn't speak up, then he is gambling
on the police working things out in time.
As we know, the police tactics worked. The serial killer was drawn out; and
Nick saved Magda. But what if this hadn't worked? What if the story had
been written differently? Or what if this happened in the real world, where
there are no heroic vampires to save the day?
Suppose, for example, that the killer had guessed that the police would have
Magda under protection (or perhaps feared that they would stake her out as
bait). Clearly the guy has a whole bunch of "sinners" he plans to clean out
of the congregation. What if he'd decided to skip Magda, at least for the
time being, and move on to the next person on his list.
No one would have had any idea who this was: she would not be stashed
in a motel with a cop on guard; she would not be under surveillance:
whoever she is, she would be easy prey.
If that had happened (and Rochefort has *no* reason to believe it
wouldn't), then "For I Have Sinned" would have had a fourth victim die. Not
Magda, obviously; but some other fourth victim.
Whom Rochefort could have saved.
Remember, this would have happened *after* the killer made his
confession. This means that the fourth murder would have taken place after
Rochefort learned who the killer was. If this scenario had been the story,
then, if he'd spoken up, they would have caught the killer in time, and she
wouldn't have died.
He could have saved her. But he let the murderer go--to kill again.
Which puts a rather different light on his being, as Tim puts it:
>a Roman Catholic priest who was "simply trying to
> help a member of his parish".
Uh...trying to help *whom*, please?
Clearly not the fourth victim! (Who would also, presumably, be a member
of his parish.) In fact, he'd be "helping" the murderer--albeit not, of
course, in the way in which priests are supposed to help murderers. And, in
all fairness, not in any way he wanted to help. Even so, his action--or
inaction--would indeed have helped the killer.
He'd be an accessory before the fact. (Well, technically, even if he
could not be held legally liable as such.)
There is an ethical issue here. One that is not really discussed in "For I
Have Sinned", since it is a show about religion rather than philosophy (or,
if you prefer, about faith rather than reason). I don't mean that in a rude
way. The episode is designed to explore the issue of faith as it impacts on
Nick as a vampire who is--or at least believes himself to be--damned. The
series typically uses the police plot and the historical plot to provide
counterpoint to an issue involving Nick; and that is why Rochefort and Joan
are both deeply faithful Catholics. So is Nick, of course. If he weren't,
he wouldn't be so shaken by the implications of the vampire state, as he
sees it.
The episode does a *really* good job of exploring this point, which is
one that is central to the series.
However, when I first saw "For I Have Sinned", I saw that--in delving into
the issue of faith--the writer raised issues of ethics which had to be
ignored, if only because the show is one hour long, and there's a limit to
what can be covered.
Which is why I proceeded to write a sequel to it. (Which is another
story.)
Getting back to Tim's point. He quite rightly points out that, if Nick
presses Rochefort too hard, there will be a complaint. If not from
Rochefort himself, then from his superiors in the Catholic Church. However,
the press can be played both ways. There's the religious freedom issue:
obviously that's the angle that the church publicists will play. But all
Nick (or the police force) are trying to do here is save someone's life.
Get the right reporter to cover the case, and the entire spin gets reversed.
Admittedly in a way that is precisely *counter* to the theme of "For I Have
Sinned"--but I can't help but see the POV of the next victim.
After all, serial killers can have all kinds of motivations. They can
target people who are perfectly innocent (or, in this case, might misread
the evidence on some fourth or fifth victim who might actually be more
"innocent" than Magda).
Suppose it was you?
Suppose that *you* were the next victim on the killer's list. Suppose that
Fr. Rochefort held the key to saving *your* life? Would you be willing to
die in order that the parish priest not break confession?
As I say, there is an ethical issue here that the story is not designed to
discuss (and doesn't have time to deal with). But it jumped out at me when
I first saw the episode, and each time I've seen it since.
Greer
gwatson2@r.......
http://ca.geocities.com/gwatson2@rogers.com/index.html
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End of FORKNI-L Digest - 22 Jul 2006 to 23 Jul 2006 (#2006-196)
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