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FORKNI-L Digest - 1 Nov 2001 to 2 Nov 2001 (#2001-332)

Fri, 2 Nov 2001

There are 20 messages totalling 504 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. What's in a punctuation? (9)
  2. What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know! (10)
  3. Revolving-door languages... (WAS: Re: What's in a punctuation?)

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Date:    Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:03:20 -0800
From:    Eric McCann <egmccann@t.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

At 02:46 PM 11/1/01 -0700, you wrote:
> > Oh, and regarding an earlier response -- how *would* the French punctuate
>LaCroix?
>
>They wouldn't.

Oh, jeez.  Now I have an image in my head of Lacroix (doing the "Uncle
Snarl") saying "I will NOT be PUNCTUATED!"

-Eric

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:04:48 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

In a message dated Thu, 1 Nov 2001  5:03:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Eric
McCann <egmccann@t.......> writes:

> Oh, jeez.  Now I have an image in my head of Lacroix (doing the "Uncle
> Snarl") saying "I will NOT be PUNCTUATED!"

But he has been punctured pretty good a few times ;-) hehehe

"I am MUCH too old and powerful to be PUNCTUATED!"

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:06:17 -0700
From:    Laudon1965 <Laudon1965@c.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric McCann" <egmccann@t.......>

> Oh, jeez.  Now I have an image in my head of Lacroix (doing the "Uncle
> Snarl") saying "I will NOT be PUNCTUATED!"

But he sure does like to "punctuate" others, though,
doesn't he? <g>

Laurie of the Isles

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:44:58 -0500
From:    knightfangs <knightfangs@h.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

If anyone really wants to check this out, I found a site that gives you the
"Rules of Writing and Punctuation".  It's at:
http://advertising.utexas.edu/research/style/index.html

It seems to me that Portia's the winner.  It can be either way when the subject
is singular, is just showing possession and ends in an s, sh, or z sound.

Grace

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:26:13 -0600
From:    "Nancy E. Kaminski" <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

I use the Chicago Manual of Style when editing (this is the standard in
technical and academic publishing, as opposed to the AP Manual of Style, which
is the journalistic standard). Here's what Chicago says (in section 6.18):

"For names ending in silent s, z, or x the possessive, unlike the plural, can
generally be formed in the usual way without suggesting an incorrect
pronunciation:

--Josquin Des Prez's motets
--Vaucouleurs's theorems
--Margaux's bouquet"

Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:46:59 -0800
From:    Bonnie <callalily@l.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

At 05:00 PM 11/1/01 -0500, Portia Eins <portia1@m.......> wrote:
>Been wondering <SNIP> the proper way to punctuate the possesive form of
>LaCroix?


This is what I found in "William Strunk, Jr. (18691946).  The Elements of
Style.  1918."

>Form the possessive singular of nouns with 's.
>
>Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Thus write,
>             Charles's friend
>             Burns's poems
>             the witch's malice
>
>This is the usage of the United States Government Printing Office and of
>the Oxford University Press.

"WHATEVER THE FINAL CONSONANT" -- that to me means: "LaCroix's monologing
lips," "Nicholas's basement of bimbos," "Urs's blonde curls."


The text goes one to say:
>Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names in -es and -is, the
>possessive Jesus', and such forms as for conscience' sake, for righteousness' sake.
>But such forms as Achilles' heel, Moses' laws, Isis' temple are commonly replaced by
>             the heel of Achilles
>             the laws of Moses
>             the temple of Isis

And this all matches what I've been told, so....

Bonnie
Cousinly-Receptionist-In-Training
callalily@l.......

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:38:44 -0000
From:    Barbara Vainio <bevainio@w.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

Brenda wrote:

>that perhaps in fell
> outside the rules of English grammar and the x did not receive the English
> pronunciation of ks.   Could this be the same when making La Croix
> possessive?  Just a thought.
>
Just to add to the confusion, when I was in elementary school, learning
grammar ( about the time Vesuvius erupted <g>) I was taught that the second
's' was optional in possessives of words that ended in  with one.  So, I've
always chosen to not use it, which has become virtually an affectation over
the years.  However, I was pleased to see in the latest brochure from "the
Mystery Guild" that they left off the second 's' in all their possessives.
So maybe it's coming back into fashion <g>

Barb

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:54:14 -0500
From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

At 10:08 AM 11/1/2001 -0500, McLisa wrote:

>I'm not sure that the dropped final "s" in the French pronunciation had
>happened yet in 13th c. French and/or in Brabantian dialect.  I know the
>final unaccented e in French wasn't lost until the 16th c. and is still
>pronounced when the language is sung, at least in opera.

 From what I understand, the final "s" was pronounced at least into the
16th Century. The unaccented "e" is always accounted for and accented in
poetry and song, even unto today.

>In the 13th c., Nicholas's family would have spoken both the local form of
>French and the local dialect of Netherlandic...

And I have to laugh at the "13th-Century" flashbacks in which the
characters all speak perfect late-20th Century textbook French...


Brenda F. Bell   webwarren@e.......   /nick TMana     IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
         UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos:  http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:22:43 -0500
From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Revolving-door languages... (WAS: Re: What's in a punctuation?)

At 03:59 PM 11/1/2001 -0500, Libs wrote:

>Can you imagine all the changes in living languages that Nick and
>especially LaCroix have seen?  I wonder if they could slip back and forth
>doing dialects and formal language from a former century until today? Or
>has the changes been so gradual they really don't pay much attention to it
>unless a language totally dies out.

Oh, I'm sure they're familiar with the earlier forms -- they just don't use
them in the hearing of mortals who might know the difference, who must be
allowed to survive the encounter.

>Screed, of course, probably doesn't worry about such formality. 'E's jest
>jammy-jamed through the cents-your-ways.

Or he watches "Eastenders" religiously <eg>....,


Brenda F. Bell   webwarren@e.......   /nick TMana     IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
         UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos:  http://members.Tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Nov 2001 02:07:14 +0000
From:    jennii35 <jennii35@i.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

And I have to laugh at the "13th-Century" flashbacks in which the
characters all speak perfect late-20th Century textbook French...


  Maybe that is because 13th Century french is not
   taught in schools   (bg)

    Dot

Lover of all things Nigel
Dark Knightie and UFer
jennii35@i.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:20:52 -0500
From:    Lisa Williams <mystykblue@e.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

I thought he was behind your couch in a purple thong. <g>
That'd make *me* bark. <weg>

Laurie of the Isles

Hell...that'd make me growl! Thanks for the visual Laurie!
Lisa W.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:59:11 -0700
From:    Laudon1965 <Laudon1965@c.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

I wrote:
> I thought he was behind your couch in a purple thong. <g>  That'd make
> *me* bark. <weg>
> Laurie of the Isles

And Lisa Williams responded:
> Hell...that'd make me growl! Thanks for the visual Laurie!

It was a reference to an old thread here on the list.
Anybody remember how it got started?

Laurie of the Isles

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:02:35 -0500
From:    Tim Phillips <Timp@d.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

> And I have to laugh at the "13th-Century" flashbacks in which the
> characters all speak perfect late-20th Century textbook French...
        I remember watching a show on the History channel one day
about the evolution of language.
        For an example, a linguist read the Lord's Prayer with the
vocabulary and pronounciations appropriate to the time-frame going
back at 200 year intervals.
        It grew progressively unrecognizable until somewhere around
(foggy memory) the 1200s, when about the only way to recognize
what was being said was literally the cadence of the linguist's voice.
        I could see the vampires have real fun as they hop from country
to country.  It would probably provide an extra incentive to not stay
any one place too long as when they finally did move on their grasp
of French/Chinese/English... would sound outdated in their new
home.  Better to stay in motion so that they keep their ear for the
evolving pattern of languages sharp.

                Tim


 Tim Phillips
 timp@d.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:16:00 -0500
From:    Tim Phillips <Timp@d.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

> It was a reference to an old thread here on the list.
> Anybody remember how it got started?

        LaCroix in a purple thong.
        I think only James Burke can Connect this to anything.
        I know I'm not gonna try.

                Tim
 Tim Phillips
 timp@d.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:06:42 -0600
From:    Nichole A Knight <cdisiere@j.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

According to 'Merriam Webster's Pocket Guide to Punctuation', it would be
like the following:

The possessive forms of names ending in a silent -s, -z, or -x usually
include the apostrophe and the -s.

        Arkansas's caital
        Camus's 'The Stranger'
        Josquin des Prez's music
        Delacroix's painting

Hope this helps you.

Nichole

On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:27:31 -0500 Portia Eins <portia1@m.......>
writes:
> Been wondering -- and here's hoping some of you editors out there can
> answer this for me -- the proper way to punctuate the possesive form
> of LaCroix?  Have I done it correctly below?  Or should it be 's?
> Don't need convention, just need the rule....
>
> Portia
>
> Forever Knight TV show <FORKNI-L@l.......> wrote:
> > LaCroix' grief for his beloved pet budgie "Nicholas" who died in
> > the sulphorous ash that choked Pompeii.... LOL!

"I am what I am, and I don't think Betty Ford takes vampires."
               ~Detective Nick Knight/Nicholas de Brabant "Forever Knight"


------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:34:41 -0500
From:    judycat@p.......
Subject: Re: What's in a punctuation?

>The possessive forms of names ending in a silent -s, -z, or -x usually
>include the apostrophe and the -s.

I realize it is a bit redundant now but I also checked
with someone who would know.  Friends Dan and Penny
Lacroix. Dan has an uncle in Canada who's first name
is-are you ready-Lucien. They confirm it is Lacroix's.

Judy

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:21:24 -0700
From:    Laudon1965 <Laudon1965@c.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

It wasn't *just* LaCroix in a purple thong.  It was
LaCroix in a purple thong *behind McLisa's couch*.
that makes a difference, you know. <g>

Laurie of the Isles
Still trying to remember
how the old boy got there.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Phillips"

>         LaCroix in a purple thong.
>         I think only James Burke can Connect this to anything.
>         I know I'm not gonna try.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:32:06 -0500
From:    Tim Phillips <Timp@d.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

> It wasn't *just* LaCroix in a purple thong.  It was
> LaCroix in a purple thong *behind McLisa's couch*.
> that makes a difference, you know. <g>
        Y'all will just have to forgive me for the fact that I am trying to
black this mental image out and apparently have managed to forget
parts of it already.

> Still trying to remember
> how the old boy got there.
        Probably looking for his pants.

                Tim
 Tim Phillips
 timp@d.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:31:44 -0800
From:    Denise Ruth <ithildin@o.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

At 12:21 PM 11/2/2001 -0700, Laudon1965 wrote:
>It wasn't *just* LaCroix in a purple thong.  It was
>LaCroix in a purple thong *behind McLisa's couch*.
>that makes a difference, you know. <g>

I know there was a feather involved somewhere too. But I don't remember the
couch....

My memory is lost in the mists of time.

          Ith ~ ithildin@o....... ~ Denise
     ~ Don't believe everything you're foretold. ~ Angel ~
ST: Enterprise http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ST_FirstGen
               ~ http://www.ondragonswing.com ~

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:36:22 -0500
From:    Tim Phillips <Timp@d.......>
Subject: Re: What's in a name -- that's what I wanna know!

> It wasn't *just* LaCroix in a purple thong.  It was
> LaCroix in a purple thong *behind McLisa's couch*.
> that makes a difference, you know. <g>
 Y'all will just have to forgive me for the fact that I am trying
to black this mental image out and apparently have managed to
forget parts of it already.

> Still trying to remember
> how the old boy got there.
        Probably looking for his pants.

                Tim

 Tim Phillips
 timp@d.......

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 1 Nov 2001 to 2 Nov 2001 (#2001-332)
*************************************************************


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