FKSPOILR
Logfile LOG9606 Part 6
June 5-June 7, 1996
File: "FKSPOILR LOG9606" Part 6
TOPICS:
Virtual Season
Spoiler: Jane Doe
ADMIN: List Farewell Party.
Spoilers: LK
Spoiler: AtA/LK, Virtua
SPOILER: FI, Fleur
LK - Rising Sun?
SPOILER: LK, HF & Baby,Baby (4)
SPOILERS: LK, Francesca, Fever (3)
Spoiler - Jane Doe
Spoiler: Jane Doe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:11:20 -0400
From: "Gary M. Miller" <pbreilly@p.......>
Subject: Re: Virtual Season
Hi everyone--
Just wanted to let everyone know my personal stance on the fourth "virtual"
season of FK. Here goes:
- I'm in total support of carrying on from LK, that's a given. And NO "Nick
wakes up" as a resolution--too cliched. Personally I would prefer something
odd happening in the FK mythos between Nat and Nick--though I don't want to
comment on what at the moment (though it has always struck me as funny that
Nat has never really questioned Nick at any time until the last episode--she
has no idea what it was like to really experience all those years like Nick
had. She needs to fully realize who she thinks she loves--and reexamine
that relationship--not to say that they shouldn't be a couple, per se, but
some more tension and even fear would be nice.).
- I am open to ideas for the returns/resurrections of characters Don Schanke
and Janette du Charme. I DO NOT support the return of Captain Cohen, nor
Tracy or Vachon. I would like to see Schanke as Nick's superior were he to
return (Captain Schanke has a nice ring to it). The only downside I could
see here is that it leaves Nick wide open to get a new partner--one whom I'd
be awfully hesitant to create.
- I would also like to see something redefine the relationship between Nick
and LaCroix yet again (possibly revert to the LC-as-antagonist approach
which we never really got to see much of in the series). He needs to be
more sinister.
I do also agree that this should not serve as canon, but should be taken as
a string of continuity-defined fan fiction. Doing it this way will make for
the best of all possible worlds.
Gary M.
Gary Michael Miller "pbreilly@p......."
Honorary Web-Head; X-Phile; Keeper of the Vault; Fan of Strange Luck;
Branch (Peter) Davidian; Forever Knightie with Cousinly tendencies;
FOLC, 2099er, Lycanthrope; GATB (Is there really anything else?)
"If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't return, hunt it down. . .
and kill it."
-Lucien LaCroix
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:12:10 -0500
From: Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject: Re: Spoiler: Jane Doe
Margie Gillis writes:
>So did anyone else think this, or did the idea of Tracy helping Nat
>make sense to the rest of you?
I thought it was stupid to let Tracy assist too. Observing the
autopsy should have been sufficient to get Tracy over some of her
squeamishness around dead bodies.
--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
--tmp_harkins@d.......
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:23:26 -0400
From: The Phoenix <jap8@c.......>
Subject: ADMIN: List Farewell Party.
The two weeks are nearly up. FKSPOILR is slated to go away this coming
Monday. So, this weekend is officially a List Farewell Party. All list
on-topic rules are out the window (tho the politeness ones are still in
effect) for Saturday and Sunday. Everyone can post all the nice things
they want about their fellow listmembers (instead of the veiled and
outright flames that seem to be SOP for here) and about the show.
NOTE: This is *ONLY* for FKSPOILR. FORKNI-L and FKFIC-L are still going
as per usual, and you *WILL* get yelled at if you carry the party over to
them.
Note^2: You don't have to unsubscribe or anything on Monday. When Bill
takes the list down, your subscriptions are automatically nuked. Neat,
huh?
Red.
/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
The Tastiest Crayon, Her Royal Redness, Jaye the First, the Phoenix.
jap8@c....... // http://cac.psu.edu/~jap8/
Keeper of the Crayons, PMEB.
/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:21:54 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@o.......>
Subject: Spoilers: LK
I set myself to nomail when LK aired so that I wouldn't get depressed about
having to see it so much later than everyone else, but anyway now I have
seen it, and while I *didn't* get depressed, I also don't think the episode
worked very well. I don't quite know what was wrong with it - the storyline
is fine per se, I just thought the episode came out very 'flat'. I didn't
have an urge to cry or even hit something or try to get revenge on TPTB.
Nothing. When it was over I was like, "Yeah, AND??" Maybe it was because
everyone was so tired, and that came across. Even the acting was flatter
than usual, which really surprised me. The only person who didn't seem flat
to me was LaCroix.
Anyway, having *not* had my emotions affected by LK, I'll have no problem in
continuing to watch the show, read fanfic, and write fanfic. Whether Nick
finished Natalie off or not, or Uncle staked Nick or not, they're all still
alive in my heart and will continue to be so.
- Marina.
\\ "And tell me if you want to catch that feeling of redemption; //
// That feeling of redemption don't do much for me." - Tanita Tikaram \\
\\======Marina Bailey========tmar@f.......=======Dark Knightie======//
... Kirk never had to pretend to be a barber
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:24:13 -0400
From: Gehirn Karies <SoulDebris@a.......>
Subject: Re: Spoiler: AtA/LK, Virtua
Katharine wrote:
>So on one level, everything would return to 'normal';
>Janette at the Raven (or perhaps a new club, or
>restaurant), LaCroix hanging about, either as the
>Nightcrawler or something new,
Aaaack! I just had the most wretched thought.
What if the combined events of AtA and LK
turned LaCroix's hair ... WHITE!!!!
The new radio show would be,
Quibble with Qus-Tipius
Gehrin Karies
SoulDebris@a.......
"What is wrong with you anyway?" Schanke to Nick OtL.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:03:54 -0700
From: Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject: SPOILER: FI, Fleur
"Fallen Idols" is the one third-season episode I don't have on tape.
The syndie I was at then preempted it for boxing, as Tippi so kindly and
twistedly commemorated in EC II, so I had to borrow it.
This is particularly unfortunate, and slightly ironic, as I'm trying to
come up with a Fleur FAQ. However, if I remember correctly, we really
didn't get any hint of how old Fleur was when she died, or if Andre was a
first child, an only surviving child, or what. I know that we do get to
presume that her husband predeceased her, and that his family had no
interest in Andre -- or that Fleur wanted to keep Andre away from them for
some reason. We do know that she and Nick corresponded. I think we also
get to assume that Fleur lived somewhere else after her marriage, because
while the set from FI *could* be in the same building as BMV, the entrance
makes it seem more logically a different place.
If anyone has any information on the timing of the FI flashbacks, or any
insights into Fleur or Andre's social position, I would very much
appreciate reading them.
*** Amy, Lady of the Knight (akr@n.......) ***
** Knightie *** Light Cousin *** Fleur-Booster **
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:05:57 -0400
From: Linda Simon <lsimon@h.......>
Subject: LK - Rising Sun?
Watching (actually, re-watching for the 20th time) the ending of LK, the hot
ball of sun rising, the swelling music (maybe I should take this to jadfe)...
it occurs to me (a non-photographer) that I have never seen a sunrise like
that. But I sure have seen similar sunsets. I wonder if they filmed a sunset
and rolled backwards to create the effect. It was a great ending in artisitc
terms: color matching the heat of our emotions, music as big as the sun. Wow.
Linda Simon - NatPacker, subliminal Cousin
"There is prodigious danger in the seeking of loose spirits." Rebecca Nurse,
THE CRUCIBLE by Arthur Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:46:25 -0700
From: Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject: SPOILER: LK, HF & Baby,Baby
After HF, it was speculated that Janette became mortal not merely because
of Robert's love, but because she became pregnant. This line of thought
asserted that the legend Serena was following in "Baby, Baby" was a true
one, but that she'd misinterpreted it.
Janette said that she didn't know why she stopped with Robert, only that
his blood "warmed" her "heart." She also said that she was unable to
bring him across when she tried, as he was dying.
Now, the strongest LK-related argument against Nick being in love with
Natalie -- or, at least, against her being his "true love" -- is that if
he loved her, he would have been able to stop, as Janette did. If,
however, we follow the B,B theory of returning to mortality, then it
wouldn't matter how much in love he was or wasn't; he never had a shot at
this cure, and he and Nat should have known it. He's dense, but neither
of them are dumb.
Another ramification of B,B for LK comes from what Nick thought was
Serena's sure and informed plea to come across. She said she wanted it,
that it was her choice, that he needn't be responsible. Obviously, he
made a mistake. And that mistake taught him that no one ever really wants
to come over, no matter what they seem to say. That lesson had to be
somewhere in his mind as he decided it was better to let Nat die than drag
her into his damnation.
*** Amy, Lady of the Knight (akr@n.......) ***
** Knightie *** Light Cousin *** Fleur-Booster **
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:19:52 -0400
From: Marcia Tucker <ScFiMarci@a.......>
Subject: SPOILERS: LK, Francesca, Fever
Deb <drowland@a.......> wrote:
>>She knew he didn't have a good track record of sipping or bringing people
across, therefore there was a better than average chance she'd end up dead.
The only way Nick would be with her was if he killed himself. Would Nat
really want Nick to do that? I don't think so.<<
Yeah, and I don't think so, either! I can't see either of them acting the
way they did, even in such circumstances - okay, maybe Nick, who does go off
the deep end from time to time, but NATALIE? I just can't see her treating
life so carelessly. I mean, didn't she say she DIDN'T want to end up like
Lora? So she chooses a plan of action that would most likely leave her dead,
ending up like Lora??? I'm no Natpacker, but I do have a lot of respect for
the character, and I just can't see it, no way, no can do.
But Deb's comments above do make me think - what exactly does Nat know about
Nick's track record?? He told her in "Francesca" that sharing/drinking blood
was a hard habit to give up and why, but he hasn't, as far as we know, told
her case histories of his failures. Especially Alyssa, and I think that he
DEFINITELY owed it to her to tell her of that. Unless he was thinking (oh, I
love Nick dearly, but he does practice muddy thinking) that it was so long
ago that it didn't matter.
Natalie does know, however, that Nick *can* bring someone across successfully
- Richard, case in point. No trouble there. Nick's bringing-across troubles
largely seem to come in when he has a close/loving relationship with the
mortal involved (Alyssa, Amalia, Nat.) But Nat did not know this! (It's
okay, you can correct me if I'm wrong - if I've forgotten somewhere where she
does learn of it. I just can't think of any ep where she does.)
Of course Nick didn't win any points from anyone in his follow-up methods -
*that's* where I see Nick as having major problems (Richard, Elizabeth,
Gerald Archer). Nick just doesn't work closely enough with his fledglings to
get them past the early, heady rush of power that overwhelmed them. Nick
needed to exert more control over them - even to something like what LaCroix
did with him - but he failed or didn't want to take that responsibility. This
is most likely *because* of how LaCroix handled him, and it's probably ruined
Nick from ever being a successful "father". Would he do better with Natalie
if he had brought her across in LK? (Yes, I know, considering the Alyce
Hunter syndrome, she might come across on her own - and would she be linked
to Nick even if he didn't give her his blood?) It depends on Natalie's
reaction to becoming a vampire. No one expected Richard to go ballistic.
Would his sister fare better? How would that affect Nick and Nat's
relationship? I know this has been treated extensively in fan fic, but I
think a little Nick and Nat reality needs to be injected where I don't think
it has.
To whit:
1. New fledgling Natalie could be very different from mortal Natalie (re
Richard, Gerald Archer - especially considering Gerald, who also was a
doctor).
2. Nick's bad track record in parenting, especially considering that Nat
does *not* know about his failures (except Richard - did she ever blame Nick
for not staying with Richard and keeping a closer watch on his development?).
Summary: It doesn't look good. And I can't buy that "true love" would
overcome the likely difficulties. Richard Lambert was a *good* man, a
self-sacrificing saint, even, by mortal standards, and he ended up tossing
his sister around and threatening his beloved wife.
Back to the original point in hand: I wonder whether Natalie realized enough
about the problems to have a healthy enough fear of being brought across.
And regardless of what she did or didn't know otherwise, she *did* know that
Nick did NOT want to bring her across (AMPH).
Bottom line - that was NOT Natalie Lambert in LK. Not the Natalie who loved
life, Natalie the scientist, Natalie the doctor committed to preserving life,
the strong, survivor Nat whom we've known throughout the series (and have
loved or at least honored and respected).
I wish Nat *HAD* been there. God, I wish it had been Natalie instead of
whatever that was in her, her evil twin or whatever that knew exactly how to
plug into the worst of Nick's angst and guilt and weaknesses. I'm not
absolving Nick - I think he pathetically caved in when he so obviously was
afraid of the consequences and so feared what was going to happen that he did
not take time to "make love" and went ahead to the biting as if he had to get
that out of the way first.
Rats. Rats, rats, rats. Well, it's been done. When we get the fourth season
and/or TV movies, I just hope they don't try to pretend it all never
happened. It did, and it must be dealt with. Of course, I'll accept the
nightmare/Divia's-poison-causing-Nick-to-have-hallucinations scenario (Hi,
Stephanie Babbitt!).
But I'll NEVER accept LC staking Nick. And that's another story, isn't it?
;D
Marcia Tucker
scfimarci@a.......
Dark Knightie / Unnamed / Immortal Beloved
Almost ready to post "Transitions: A Story for Immortal Beloveds and
Valentines"!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:33:42 -0700
From: Swordsister <catheboo@c.......>
Subject: Re: SPOILER: LK, HF & Baby,Baby
On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Amy R. wrote:
> After HF, it was speculated that Janette became mortal not merely because
> of Robert's love, but because she became pregnant. This line of thought
I might've gotten a bit of clipped feed on this one, but I never thought
Janette became/was pregnant in HF. One would think that would change
everything, and have heavy consequences when she was brought back
across.
> asserted that the legend Serena was following in "Baby, Baby" was a true
> one, but that she'd misinterpreted it.
Misinterpreted it how? That the extra Y chromosome wasn't actually
needed? I'm not disputing this theory, I just seem to have missed it
when it ran through first time around.
> however, we follow the B,B theory of returning to mortality, then it
> wouldn't matter how much in love he was or wasn't; he never had a shot at
> this cure, and he and Nat should have known it. He's dense, but neither
> of them are dumb.
So you mean to say that Nick never had a chance at using this cure
because he was male? I wouldn't say that that was necessarily true.
I've always kinda cast a skeptic eye to any legendary cure that involves
something as specific as an extra Y chromosome, when the legend
undoubtedly predates such knowledge. Besides, it didn't work for her, so
there's no way to know if her cure was simply done incorrectly, or was
just another legend. It could have been anything from a mistranslation,
to... well, anything. We don't even know what the legend really says,
outside of what Lacroix tells us, which is hazy at best. As a data
point, there are too many variables surrounding her failure for them to
include it in any serious discussion of mortality.
Which leaves Janette's cure, known to have worked, and something they
have quite a bit more data on what exactly was done at what
time. Exactly how Janette's physiology got from point A to point B still
isn't clear, but at least they know what she did and what the end result
was. Which is way *way* more than they had ever had before. I don't
consider it outside of reason for them to think that Janette's cure
wouldn't work for them.
Besides, it's not like Nick hasn't taken sips before. He knows *how*,
whether or not he could control himself with Natalie was a choice she
made on her own. Personally, I don't think she really cared too much
whether he took too much or not, as he brought her across if he had to.
(I know lots of folks disagree on this point, and that's just hunky dory
with me. This is just my interpretation.)
> Serena's sure and informed plea to come across. She said she wanted it,
> that it was her choice, that he needn't be responsible. Obviously, he
> made a mistake. And that mistake taught him that no one ever really wants
> to come over, no matter what they seem to say. That lesson had to be
Well, there's one huge difference between the two: Serena didn't even
know Nick was a vampire. Her "I want to be immortal" line was
misleading, and Nick took the wrong interpretation, with disastrous
results. But Natalie knows exactly what Nick is, exactly what she's
getting into, better than any other vampire on the show did when they
came across. "I want to be immortal" is vague, "Bring me across" is
not. Whether or not it was a wise decision, Natalie wanted to be brought
across, and I can't believe Nick didn't see that.
Catherine
---------------------------------------------------------------
Catherine Boone Knightie HBTS catheboo@c.......
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with
themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon." - H. L. Mencken
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:58:34 -0500
From: Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject: Re: SPOILERS: LK, Francesca, Fever
Deb Rowland writes:
>She knew he didn't have a good track record of sipping or bringing
>people across,
I don't know about that. Nick usually showed some hesitation about
telling Nat a lot about his past.
Marcia Tucker writes:
>So she chooses a plan of action that would most likely leave her dead,
>ending up like Lora???
Nat was not thinking logically; she was thinking emotionally. She has
always made errors in judgment when she does that. Nick had said he
was leaving, that she didn't want his love. Nat saw Nick shutting her
out and it caused her to react emotionally. Neither one of them were
really *thinking* clearly; they were reacting emotionally.
>he hasn't...told her case histories of his failures
Well, now, I seem to recall him telling her that Serena was a "mistake".
The question is, how much more detailed about what kind of "mistake" it
was was he with Nat?
>Especially Alyssa, and I think that he DEFINITELY owed it to her to
>tell her of that.
That depends on whether one thinks Nick loves Nat or not. Even so,
say you get involved with a man who's been married before. Unless
that man had a good relationship with his former wife or they have
children that keeps them in touch, would that man want to discuss his
former wife with his new love interest very much?
Besides that, if Nick told Nat about Alyssa during a less stressful
time than LK, I think Nat would have probably written it off as a
natural mistake due to it being Nick's first time at trying to bring
someone over. You can't really say for *sure* that it was Nick's
emotional involvement with Alyssa that caused the problem, after all.
Nat saw that Nick was able to bring over Richard, and she knew that
Nick had brought over Serena. So she doesn't really have much reason
to suspect that Nick couldn't bring her over if necessary.
But I think Nat wasn't really expecting to be brought over. I think
she expected Nick to be able to "only take a little" like Janette had
did with Robert. I don't think she really *believed* it could go wrong.
>troubles...seem to come in when he has a close/loving relationship
>with the mortal involved (Alyssa, Amalia, Nat.) But Nat did not
>know this!
First, Nick didn't bring over Amalia. He killed her (although he was
able to sip from her for a while). Yes, Nat probably didn't *know*
of his past problems in bringing people over, but she knew that Nick
wanted to be mortal and normally resistant to the idea of bringing
people across anymore. He was close to bringing Tracy over due to
emotional pain, his feelings for Nat led him to bring Richard over.
And in the latter case, Nat certainly did her darndest to make Nick
feel emotionally obligated so that he *would* bring Richard over. He
may not have felt a lot personally for *Richard*, but he certainly
could relate to Nat's love for her brother. He brought *Richard*
across, I think, because he couldn't stand to see Natalie suffering.
>his follow-up methods...major problems. Nick needed to exert more
>control over them
Yes, and the fact that he didn't want to do so is probably because he
didn't want to turn into or be perceived by his children as another LC.
LC's treatment of Nick has a lot to do with how Nick wants to treat
(*not* treat) his children.
Yet Serena has survived. Is this solely due to her own strength of
character? She doesn't apparently want to have much to do with Nick,
but she hasn't been killed by Nick or anyone else.
>the Alyce Hunter syndrome, she might come across on her own--and
>would she be linked to Nick even if he didn't give her his blood?)
Here I must *strongly* protest. Alyce Hunter was *never* bitten by
Nick. She wanted him to bring her over, and he came close to biting
here, but *he never bit her*. *LC* bit her after throwing Nick
against a wall and knocking him out. Alyce was brought across by
*LC*. Examine your tape of Dark Knight and you will see this is a
*fact*. Sorry for all the emphasis, but I have seen this theory put
up before about Alyce and *it just ain't so*!
If Nat came across on her own, there would be a possibility that she
would be linked to Nick even if he didn't give her his blood.
It would depend on whether LC decided to put his fangs into things. :)
Remember Alexandra in Fatal Mistake. Nick thought he'd drained her to
death, but he hadn't. It was again, *LC* who brought Alexandra over.
I think if LC hadn't shown up that Alexandra would have died and not
come across. In Bad Blood, LC stopped feeding on Jack the Ripper and
he came over, and Liam, who was *not* even unconscious when taken to
the priest, also could have been brought over. I think accidental
bringing over depends on how much blood is taken. Too much and the
person will die (Alexandra) without further intervention. Less taken
means the person will live longer for the vampire element to get a
hold on their blood. At least this is my opinion. :) I think the
only reason Liam didn't come over was because of religious intervention
(miracle).
>New fledgling Natalie could be very different from mortal Natalie...
>especially considering Gerald, who also was a doctor).
Yes, I agree. In fact, in my original review of Fever, I wondered if
they were drawing a parallel with Gerald to what could happen to Nat
if she was brought over. I've read fanfic where Nat hasn't changed
much after being brought across, but this isn't usually what we're
shown about people who are brought across on the show. They seem to
live down to their worst impulses or turn mad or get drunk on the
power, etc. I can't see why Nat shouldn't suffer some sort of
personality change as well. Probably the only reason Nick and Janette
didn't go too "strange" was LC's strict control and guidance.
>Nick's bad track record in parenting.
Which would be another factor to lead Nat to not remain the Nat we've
known.
>And I can't buy that "true love" would overcome the likely difficulties.
Me neither. :)
>I wonder whether Natalie realized enough about the problems to have
>a healthy enough fear of being brought across.
You'd think she would have learned something after watching Richard.
But maybe she wrote that off as an aberration for all we know that
she didn't think could happen to her. But I do think you have a point
that Natalie may not have known enought about the problems. It was
only this season that we've seen Nick really open up some about his
past (the description of his bringing across in Near Death, the
description of what feeding was like in Francesca). In some cases,
his attempts to open up have been rejected by Nat too (him trying to
tell her about his feeling the need to "possess" in Crazy Love, for
example). Prior to this season most of his talk about the past to
Nat has been somewhat "sanitized", probably due to Nick's fear that if
she knew too much of the truth, she wouldn't want to help him anymore
or wouldn't see him as "mortal", but would instead wonder if he was
underneath it all a *monster*. Nick has *not* just killed for food.
He's killed for *revenge* (Undue Process), money (Blood Money), etc.
He hasn't wanted to tell Nat about that side of himself. And I don't
think she really can imagine that he killed for other reasons than
just food.
>I wish Nat *HAD* been there.
But she *was* there in her speech to Nick before he bit her. All the
things she's always thought about him are there: You're the most
*mortal man* I know, I trust you, I love you. Her emotional state
allowed her to speak her mind clearly instead of avoiding close
personal discussion as she has often done. She just picked a lousy
time to bare her soul. But she was desparate. She didn't want him
to leave, or to leave without her (both of which he was preparing to
do). In her own way, her speech was the biggest "pep talk" she ever
gave to Nick concerning his aim to be mortal (which she could see was
slipping away). No, it wasn't logical. But it *was* truly Nat, imo.
She was counting on the mortal side of Nick to be the dominant side.
As she has always done and always stressed. Whether it was because of
Nick's wish to be mortal is beside the point. I think that Nat came
to believe that his mortal instincts *were* the stronger ones. Maybe
that's why Nick has warned her and explained more things to her this
season. She just didn't listen or tried to ignore the urgings of his
vampire nature. She counted on the *mortal* in Nick and she was wrong.
Nick wasn't in any emotional condition to try to live up to his mortal
instincts. Just lousy timing all around, imo.
--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
--tmp_harkins@d.......
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:00:18 -0500
From: Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject: Re: SPOILERS: LK, Francesca, Fever
Ooops, forgot something.
Marcia wrote:
>I just hope they don't try to pretend it all never happened.
So do I.
--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
--tmp_harkins@d.......
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:25:50 -0400
From: Judith Freudenthal <JudithF955@a.......>
Subject: Spoiler - Jane Doe
I have to agree with Margie that Tracy should not have been doing physical
examinations of the corpse.
Nat and Reese both should have known better. I can also see it getting ugly
both in court and from their bosses.
I did like seeing Nat at work, showing us how good she is, her teaching Tracy
and seeing that Nat does really enjoy her job.
I do wish that they had let us see Tracy faint or even nearly faint.
I think it was luck (and bad writing) that allowed Tracy to find the crucial
evidence. She didn't have a clew as to what she was looking for.
Judy
JudithF955@a.......
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:43:33 -0700
From: Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject: Re: SPOILER: LK, HF & Baby,Baby
On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Swordsister wrote:
> I might've gotten a bit of clipped feed on this one, but I never thought
> Janette became/was pregnant in HF. One would think that would change
> everything, and have heavy consequences when she was brought back
> across.
About a month after the initial airing of HF, someone brought up the
possible connections to B,B. It wasn't me, as I hadn't yet seen B,B. <g>
(And I was still under the impression that Janette was dead at that point,
anyway....) The speculation was the the legend had been misread, that the
"power" of the mortal man had nothing to do with chromosomes -- which was
just Serena's screwy idea -- but with love and/or sex, as did the rest of
the poem: "higher than high" and "at the peak of the fire."
The speculation was that, as there is no way a vampire body could nourish
a mortal child, pregnancy would bring the vampire back across, and that
through either luck or love or both, Robert was one of those "special mortal
men."
Of course, if getting pregnant was what made Janette mortal, being brought
across, imho, would necessarily have caused her to lose the baby.
> So you mean to say that Nick never had a chance at using this cure
> because he was male? I wouldn't say that that was necessarily true.
But it is what I meant to suggest. *If* the legend was true, and *if* it
is what brought Janette back across, then this *particular* cure could
obviously never be applied to Nick, as LC points out in B,B.
> Which leaves Janette's cure, known to have worked, and something they
> have quite a bit more data on what exactly was done at what
> time. Exactly how Janette's physiology got from point A to point B still
> isn't clear, but at least they know what she did and what the end....
"Quite a bit more data"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't have
any "data" on either situation. They have Serena's failure, and she
never exactly discussed her reasoning -- heck, Nick never even prodded
her for the full version of the legend. They have Janette's success, and
her very emotional discussion of it. As Nat kept saying at the time,
"That can't account for what happened. Can it?" Even Nick's goofy dream
insists that there has to be a physiological explanation -- and
appropriately enough, it included Nat being pregnant.
I simply meant to add a new layer to the many things Nick and Nat weren't
thinking about in that fateful scene. Another one being that, in
Janette's opinion and, coincidentally, in accordance with Serena's legend,
it took Robert's death to bring her all the way back.
> Well, there's one huge difference between the two: Serena didn't even
> know Nick was a vampire. Her "I want to be immortal" line was
> misleading, and Nick took the wrong interpretation, with disastrous
> results. But Natalie knows exactly what Nick is....
I know. :) I'm suggesting that *Nick* didn't know. When Nick brought
Serena across, he was certain that she knew all about what he was; she
certainly sounded like she did, with "I know what you are," "I've
investigated you," and "Make me immortal." Of course, he was wrong. I
meant to suggest that his experience with Serena left him, deep down, with
the conviction that no one *really* knows what they're getting into, and
that no one could ever *really* want to come across. I know there is a
huge difference between Serena and Natalie; I just wanted to suggest that
Nick's guilt might have prevented him from recognizing that difference.
It probably didn't help that they were standing next to the fireplace,
under that dragon (from B,B).
> Whether or not it was a wise decision, Natalie wanted to be brought
> across, and I can't believe Nick didn't see that.
I agree that he must have seen it.
I just think he felt the better choice -- the one she'd want *more*, if
she only knew what he did -- was to die as a mortal.
*** Amy, Lady of the Knight (akr@n.......) ***
** Knightie *** Light Cousin *** Fleur-Booster **
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:25:24 -0400
From: Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject: Re: Spoiler: Jane Doe
As to Tracy "helping" with the autopsy:
At this point, Nat was doing the external scan, or "eyeball" portion of
the examination, where the ME notes bruises, scars, tattoos, etc., and checks
for anything lodged under the nails (finger- and toe-) or in the mouth, ears,
or other orifices. Anyone with eyes can assist with this, as long as the ME
makes the determination as to the relevance of such material and just how it
got there. Lab techs frequently help out in this part. In busy Coronor's
departments, the techs do all of it, but leave the collecting of fibers and
foreign objects to the MEs. Once the surgical portion of the exam starts,
those without medical certifications have to stay out of it, except with
minor things like holding open evidence bags.
Since Tracy was an investigating officer, I doubt any evidence collected
by her "under the close supervision of the ME" could be excluded from the
trial.
-- Ray
Nat Vamp Camp
Rage! Rage! Against the dying of the Knight!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 00:18:28 -0700
From: Swordsister <catheboo@c.......>
Subject: Re: SPOILER: LK, HF & Baby,Baby
On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Amy R. wrote:
> The speculation was that, as there is no way a vampire body could nourish
> a mortal child, pregnancy would bring the vampire back across, and that
> through either luck or love or both, Robert was one of those "special mortal
> men." Of course, if getting pregnant was what made Janette mortal,
Except Janette was never pregnant in HF. Just to be sure, I double
checked, and she wasn't. So therefore, pregnancy must not have been what
brought her back across. Which brings us back to the love and/or sex
idea.
> her for the full version of the legend. They have Janette's success, and
> her very emotional discussion of it. As Nat kept saying at the time,
> "That can't account for what happened. Can it?" Even Nick's goofy dream
I guess my point is that even her emotional discussion had far more hard
facts and figures, on a cure that worked, than on a cryptic and ancient
legend they never even heard in full, and ended up in failure. Does that
make sense?
And I can't even count the number of things on this show that have
happened this season that Nat can't account for. :) I considered
Natalie's initial arguments the same as the arguments she gave in the
beginning of DoN... it's another one of those wierd things Nick brings
into her life, like a cat bringing home a dead canary, and it takes her a
little while to exhaust all rational possibilities. Even by the end of
the episode, she's already hooked on to the idea that what worked for
Janette might work for Nick.
> insists that there has to be a physiological explanation -- and
> appropriately enough, it included Nat being pregnant.
Gaaah! It's the terrible, evil, horrible dream sequence! Run
*awaaaaay*! <g> But as for there being a physiological explanation,
yes, I've no doubt there is one. And I have every bit as much faith that
I wouldn't understand it, even should it be explained to me. But that
doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> I simply meant to add a new layer to the many things Nick and Nat weren't
> thinking about in that fateful scene. Another one being that, in
> Janette's opinion and, coincidentally, in accordance with Serena's legend,
> it took Robert's death to bring her all the way back.
Well, to go back to physiology, it shouldn't make any difference at all
to Serena whether or not the git she picked up dies. But Janette loved
Robert, and his death probably had a few physiological remifications on
her body. Which goes back to the love part of the equation.
I guess I'm not really saying that Janette's cure would have absolutely
positively worked for them, I'm just saying it wasn't outside the realm
of possibility, and that they weren't stupid to think that it might work.
> Serena across, he was certain that she knew all about what he was; she
<snip!> I meant to suggest that his experience with Serena left him, deep
> down, with the conviction that no one *really* knows what they're getting
> into, and that no one could ever *really* want to come across. I know
Well, Nick's pulled some doozies in the blindness category, but I think
this is a bit of a whopper, even for him. To take one woman who wanted a
baby, and barely knew his name, and another woman, who knows more about
what he is and what he can and can't do than he's been able to learn in
800 years... well, give that boy some shades and call Perry back over
here, 'cause we've got another patient for him...
Now, I do admit he may very well have been left with the conviction that
no one really knows what they're getting into when they ask to be
brought across. But if that really is what he was thinking, I don't
think it'd be Serena's case that gave him the idea... I think it
would be his own.
Catherine
---------------------------------------------------------------
Catherine Boone Knightie HBTS catheboo@c.......
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with
themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon." - H. L. Mencken
=========================================================================
Knight graphics and parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/
