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FKSPOILR

Logfile LOG9605 Part 28

May 14-May 15, 1996

File: "FKSPOILR LOG9605" Part 28

	TOPICS:
	Blooper script
	Spoiler: Re: Q (AtA)
	Ashes To Ashes: Tracy's memory:to purge or not to purge....  (5)
	SPOILER: Q re: Ashes
	Vacancy, and not a moment too soon  (2)
	SPOILER: Francesca - her age
	Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes -- serious
	Questions:Last Knight
	Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes  (3)
	Francesca -- details details
	SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes: Dear Divia....
	SPOILER:  Ashes to Ashes
	Ashes to Ashes: LACROIX
	SPOILER:  AtA - Urs  (2)
	Ashes to Ashes spoiler stuff/ramblings
	Ashes to Ashes: LC and URSE???!!
	Spoiler: Francesca: Vachon & Tracy (tiny bit AtA, too)
	Spoiler: Re: Q (AtA)
	LIST: Did you, perhaps, think I was joking?
	SPOILER:  Last Knight

=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 22:07:57 -0400
From:         Beth Brown <BKBVA@a.......>
Subject:      Blooper script

Laurie posted to FORKNI-L; I moved here for reasons that will be obvious
below:

<<Nigel auctioned a blooper script (a parody of the last episode) at
Syndi-Con, and a group of us bought it for the benefit of forkni-l
listmembers.  With Nigel's kind permission, we are going to make copies
available for anyone on list who wants one in return for a charitable
contribution.... >>

I am not reading any of the "Last Knight" spoilers until I have seen it,
nervous as I am.  Fortunately (or not), I get to see it Thursday (no ball
game this week).  However, my guess is this has *got* to be better than the
actual episode.  But, I hope I am wrong.

Looking forward to hearing about the details for the script.

Beth
bkbva@a.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 19:13:44 -0700
From:         Antonia Spadafina <asginger@i.......>
Subject:      Spoiler: Re: Q (AtA)

Hi all --
On Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:00:36 -0700  Sherri asked:
>>I have watched Ashes several times now... and I am just wondering -
>>just what
>>*does* the graffiti on the door of the Raven say?

I' m with Sherri.  It looked like Fluid to me too.  All kinds of connotations
ran thru my head with no satisfying conclusion.  And this is the first time I've
noticed those words on the door.  Is that a real club they use - or just a set?

Toni
Knightie from NYC
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 22:19:28 -0400
From:         Tammy Stephanie Davis <tsd@u.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes To Ashes: Tracy's memory:to purge or not to purge....


> Sweetums Dots wrote:
>
> > of THAT particular loss is not going to make her less a person. <Snip>
> > spare her any unnecessary horror is very sweet....perhaps I do agree with
> > the fact that perhaps just going ahead and making the decision for her is
> > kind of presumptuous, but his heart is definitely in the right place.
>
> for deciding what's best for Tracy, for deciding that she'd be better off
> this ever happened" and *meant* it (gave it enough thought, didn't just
> blurt out what she was feeling at that moment, considered it all, etc),
> by all means, whammy her. Nick's a dear heart but what he did is mental
> rape to me.

I find it very interesting and very puzzling reading these objections about
weather it was right for Tracy to get whammy.  Look how often all of
these vampires in FK have whammied people.  Why is this suddenly so
different?  What makes Tracy being whammied so objectionable?  Because
she's a regular character?  Because she's popular? (or become more
popular?)  Or is it because Nick is the one who asked for this to be done.

And if Tracy was the victim of a "mental rape", then doesn't that mean
that everyone else who has been hypotized on FK was simularly victimized?
Schanke, Reese, Nat, etc?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 22:19:57 -0400
From:         Arletta Asbury <g4akl@e.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: Q re: Ashes

Sherri  wrote:
> just what *does* the graffiti on the door of the Raven say?
> I tried to read it, and my poor little brain says "fluid" which doesn't make
>any sense...??

Yes it does, the fluid is the name of the nightclub in Toronto which is
used as the exterior of the Raven.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 19:41:00 -0700
From:         Angie <alasher@e.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes To Ashes: Tracy's memory:to purge or not to purge....

>> Sweetums Dots wrote:
>> for deciding what's best for Tracy, for deciding that she'd be better off
>> this ever happened" and *meant* it (gave it enough thought, didn't just
>> blurt out what she was feeling at that moment, considered it all, etc),
>> by all means, whammy her. Nick's a dear heart but what he did is mental
>> rape to me.

It is also clear that Nick knew how much Tracy loved Vachon. And despite
everything, he didn't asl LC to completely wipe her mund clean of Vachon,
just to make her forget that he had met the end. Knowing that the love you
had will never be there again for you, as opposed to just believing that a
good friend has moved on, is in my mind, a better thing. Having lost my best
friend two years ago, I would rather have had him move on to bigger and
better things, than to completely loose him from my life. If the choice had
been given to me, I would have asked for someone to erase those awful
feelings from my mind, and to replace them with the warm glow of knowing
that it was just his time to move on.

Just my take on it....

=====================
@-->-'- http://home.earthlink.net/~alasher
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/5069 --<-'-@
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 22:50:45 -0400
From:         Dotti Rhodes <dottir@w.......>
Subject:      Re: Vacancy, and not a moment too soon

To the great folks on this list:

May I please apologize for the fact that my note to Karen Kastings did not
seem to help her understand at all.  That you can dislike a character
without besmirching the people who do like the character. I am really sorry
if, like me, any of you have had your feelings hurt by her poisoned words
yet again.

I wish she chould just speak her opinions without always bringing it down to
how perfect she is and how bad we are for liking the character.  Don't feel
guiltly in anyway for liking Vachon, he is not the raping, murdering
creature she has painted and we know that.

I respectfully suggest to Karen that we all know far too well what she
thinks of the character and of us who like Vachon, and have no need to have
her treat us badly again and to move on to some other subject that she can
speak about happily.

Dotti R
Knightie 4-Ever
dottir@w.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 20:07:47 -0700
From:         LC Fenster <lucienlc@i.......>
Subject:      SPOILER: Francesca - her age

Noticed something of interest in the Francesca script that didn't make
it into the final version.

In the script, in the flashback, Francesca indicates that she is 1,000
years old.  Since this was set in 1755, that indicates she was brought
across around 755 AD.  Which makes her older than Janette and Nick.

And here's another tidbit:

From missing Nightcrawler monologue:

LC:  Are we born innocent?  And the world teaches us to hate and kill?


Laurie
Purveyor of nitpicky details
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 23:18:16 -0400
From:         Dotti Rhodes <dottir@w.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes To Ashes: Tracy's memory:to purge or not to purge....

At 10:19 PM 5/14/96 -0400, you wrote:

>What makes Tracy being whammied so bjectionable? (snip)And if Tracy was the
>victim of a "mental rape", then doesn't that mean that everyone else who
>has been hypotized on FK was simularly victimized? Schanke, Reese, Nat, etc?
>
(Giggle) This is too true...but then, I wasn't against it anyway....
Dotti R
Knightie 4-Ever
dottir@w.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 23:45:32 -0400
From:         Arletta Asbury <g4akl@e.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes -- serious

Janette92@a....... said,
>>>V: "Tracy?
>>>T: <mumble mumble>
>>>V: "Wish me luck."
>>
>I put my TV on closed caption to try and figure it out, and
>THAT said that she said "I love you."  It doesn't SOUND like that's what
>she's saying though.

I wish she *HAD* said that to him.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 23:54:37 EDT
From:         BRIAN WHELTON <103045.2473@c.......>
Subject:      Questions:Last Knight

An important question for those who have seen it.
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
5
4
3
2
1
So Tracy is dead.Nat is dead. Nick is dead.
HOW DOES GER's HAIR LOOOOKKKKK??????
Only kidding because I can't sleep and I can't believe how much this is
bothering me.
     Kathy  W
     Tearful Knightie-in Training
      Who really believes that Schanke got on the wrong plane even though I
have never seen a single season 1or 2 episode.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:01:46 -0400
From:         Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes

Sarah Welsh wrote:

> Where *do* vampires go when they die?

     Without getting all religious here, I think Vachon himself answered that
question at the end of "Fever" at Screed's grave.  "See you in Hell, sailor!"

     Just a thought

  --  Ray
   Nat Vamp Camp

     Rage!  Rage!  Against the dying of the Knight!
      (and the Conquistador, and the Ratsucker,
        and the ... um ... oh hell ... and Urs!)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:01:42 -0400
From:         Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Francesca -- details details

Bonnela wrote

> I think Ray meant <snip>

     Yes, that's what I was trying to point out.  One doesn't have to know a
lot of French to know that "chevalier" means "knight", and Vachon speaks (or
has spoken) French in everyday use.  Making a connection between "M.
Chevalier" and "Mr. Knight", even if just for a moment, would seem automatic,
then a moment later connecting that the two share the same first name would
at least register as a coincedence.  Then a thrid moment for his
vampire-specific memories to kick in (including going through several name
changes to hide your identity), and Vachon would quickly decide that
"Nicholas Chevalier" and "Nick Knight" are probably the same person.  Which
indeed he did.

     I should have made a seperation between that and my next thought, which
was that I found it odd that Vachon would be translating from French to
English, when I assumed that he thinks in his native Spanish.  Other posters
have pointed out that after speaking a given language for a time, you cease
thinking in your native language and think in the language you've been
speaking.  Vacon may be using a French-sounding surname as an "explanation"
for speaking fluent French when in French-speaking areas of Canada (remember,
he's only been in Toronto since "Black Buddha", which happened, we assume,
less than a year ago).  In any case, my assumption that Vachon thinks in
Spanish may not be true.

>But what struck me as odd is that Tracy calls Vachon 'Vachon' and not 'Javier'.

     We heard Tracy call Vachon "Javier" in "Ashes to Ashes", and she seemed
to have trouble getting her tongue around the name.  Hmmm.  I think I just
inspired a bunch of JADFE-related images in the minds of the Vaqueras (and
maybe the Perkolators, too.)  Perhaps it was the actress' choice to call
Vachon by his surname.
     Of course, Nat calls LaCroix "LaCroix", rather than "Lucien", but that
may be simply because that's what Nick calls him.

  -- Ray
   Nat Vamp Camp

     Rage!  Rage!  Against the dying of the Knight!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:01:47 -0400
From:         Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: Ashes to Ashes: Dear Divia....

> Happy Mother's Day!
>
>
>  Love, Lucius

   LOL!!!
   After all this sober, heavy, depressing discussion, this bright moment was
just what I needed!

  --  Ray
   Nat Vamp Camp

     Rage!  Rage!  Against the dying of the Knight!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:09:09 -0400
From:         Roxanne Piccen <RoxanneP@a.......>
Subject:      SPOILER:  Ashes to Ashes

Well, I was hoping to post this earlier today and be caught up on my
digests, but unfortunately my employers had other plans for me.  (Got
your FYI message, though, Dotti.  Thanks!)  They just don't seem to
understand the emotional trauma of a beloved t.v. show coming to an
end.  "Work!  How am I supposed to work?"

I've still got four digests to read, but I'm sure everyone's reaction was
similar.  WOW!  Spectacular show.  Great acting all around.

*sob*  Vachon is gone.  Or is he?  I tend to agree with Apache that he
could be brought back.  After all, Divia didn't feed for almost 2000 years
and, more importantly, she had no head!  No wonder she was cremated
at the end - kind of hard to regenerate your body from ashes.  Guess the
only way to make sure a vampire is *really* gone is not to have a body left.
Although that didn't stop Francesca, did it?  :-p   BTW, I thought of all of
us when Nick asked LaCroix how Divia could have survived and he replied
what difference did it make.  Do you think they were anticipating our
discussions on the Divia issue?

Let me once again make my complaint about TPTB.  They get rid of some
of our beloved regular characters, replace them, then get rid of the new
characters just when we've become accustomed to them.  What is the
reasoning behind this, please?  Has someone been taking lessons in evil
from Divia?

BTW, didn't Urs and Vachon look adorable when LaCroix found them in
the Raven?  I thought that was so sweet of Vachon to stay with her
after her nightmare.  Did he happen to be staying at the Raven that day
or did he just sense that she was upset and came?
                                                                            /
\           /\
                                                                           /
  \         /   \
Roxanne  ---> riding an emotional t.v. roller coaster /     \       /









                                                                         \__/
RoxanneP@a....... (Home) // CHIRMP@a....... (Work)
*****************************************************************************
Save Forever Knight!  //  Save American Gothic!  Check out:
http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html
http://www.best.com/~owls for The Trinity Guardian
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:04:22 -0400
From:         Michelle Mark <Raindance2@a.......>
Subject:      Ashes to Ashes: LACROIX

Sandra wrote:
<<Mostly I guess I was just perplexed because he seemed to me to be out of
character a good deal of the time. >>

Out of character?  I see it as character development.  Something Nick could
use a little of.  I think it would take another 3 seasons at least, just to
scratch the surface of LaCroix's character.  Would you really want him to
stay as seemingly one dimensional as he was during the first season??  I mean
the bad-ass vampire routine can only go so far.  After almost 2,000 years of
existence, there has to be more to him than that.  I think some of the first
eps of the third season went overboard (ie:lets get naked) and LC was
definitely out of character, but I don't see that in AtoA, just as I didn't
see it in BMV.  Why is it so hard for people to believe that LC can feel
love? (Fleur, Nick, Divia, Janette) He's not a vulcan for godssake!  I'm not
saying I want to see him go soft
(in any sense of the word ;)  and I like him when he's being a mean SOB,
however, I think it is OK for him to show other emotions as well.

Cousin Michelle (who is still in serious need of sleep!)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:16:01 -0400
From:         Roxanne Piccen <RoxanneP@a.......>
Subject:      SPOILER:  AtA - Urs

Urs, girl, we barely knew ya.

Every aspect of this ep is being relished nicely, so I've decided to offer a
commentary on Urs (another of our under-utilized characters) in honor of
her demise.

Although age is probably the big factor as to who survived Divia's attacks
and for how long, perhaps another reason can be found in what Divia told
Nick in his loft.  I believe she said that it would be better for him if he
didn't fight her.  Well, Urs fought tooth (fang?) and nail (Can I hear a "You
go, girl!", please?  Thank you.) and maybe that's why she died so quickly
without lingering like Vachon.

Great scene in the elevator.  Urs vamped out *immediately* when she
knew someone was there.  She turned in Divia's direction with fangs
bared without even knowing who it was.  Of course, seeing Vachon go
strange on her, as Schanke would say, probably put her on alert.  BTW,
is this the first time she's vamped out?  HoD was her big ep and I don't
remember seeing her do it in there.

Urs certainly has come a long way from the exploited, abused woman
of 100 plus years ago.  She wanted to die then, and after being brought
across, it seems she's merely existed as a vampire and not really *lived*.
But when it came right down to it, she didn't just give up and die.  Kind
of funny that Urs was originally the vampire who wanted to die and she's
the one who fought Divia the hardest to live.  Even LaCroix just sort of
let Divia toss him around the Raven for a little bit.  Why the heck didn't
Nick attack Divia as soon as she appeared in the loft?  He saw what
she did to Urs (did he clean up the elevator that quickly).  He must
have realized she wasn't there to discuss a Father's Day gift for LaCroix.

So say what you will about Urs and her intelligence and wide-eyed
vapid expressions, she was a kind-hearted, sweet soul who had great
devotion and loyalty for Vachon.  I've grown to like Urs and, goshdarnit,
I'm going to miss her.

Roxanne -->who really liked that scene of Vachon & Urs on the sofa :-)

RoxanneP@a....... (Home) // CHIRMP@a....... (Work)
*****************************************************************************
Save Forever Knight!  //  Save American Gothic!  Check out:
http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html
http://www.best.com/~owls for The Trinity Guardian
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 22:43:29 -0500
From:         Sarah Welsh <welshkin@d.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes To Ashes: Tracy's memory:to purge or not to purge....

On Tue, 14 May 1996, Tammy Stephanie Davis wrote:

What makes Tracy being whammied so objectionable?  Becauseshe's a regular
character?  Or is it because Nick is the one who asked for this to be
done.  And if Tracy was the victim of a "mental rape", then doesn't that
mean that everyone else who has been hypotized on FK was simularly
victimized?

[Well, I almost got it to 4 lines.]

Yes, actually, we *do* pitch a fit just about every time someone gets
hypnotized on FK.  Haven't you noticed that about us yet?  ;)  The thing
is that Nick seems to think that he knows what's best for everybody else,
no matter what their own wishes might be in a situation.  *That's* what
annoys us: his arrogance at thinking that what he wants for other people
is what they want, or even that what he wants for himself is what other
people want, and never asking them their own opinion.  You don't have to
be a vampire to do this.  I know a heckuva lot of people who subscribe to
the same belief: people who lie to me because they think they're
protecting me, keep the truth from me, make decisions directly affecting
my life without asking me about it first.  I hate it.  I'm sure you hate
it too when people do it to you.  And just because it's being done by a
character that we like a lot doesn't make it right.  Well-intentioned
mind rape is still mind rape.

If I had a chance between thinking that someone that I loved died or
thinking that they moved away and don't care enough about me to ever get
in touch with me again.... well, quite honestly, I think I'd rather have
them die.  That way I could remember them as a friend rather than someone
who made me believe that they cared about me when they were lying the
whole time.  And the worst part would be that she wouldn't know whether
he'd ever get in touch with her again.  She'd spend the rest of her life
waiting for a phone call or a tap on the window and having her heart stop
every time she saw a young guy with long dark hair.  Love that ended
because of death is a lot less bitter than love that ended through
betrayal, imho.

On an unrelated note, why is it, do you suppose, that Nick finds food
easier to digest with lots of ketchup (cf. FtB, tons of fanfic)?  Is it a
purely psychological reaction because it's red and liquid and thus looks
like what he's used to ingesting?  Or is there something about tomatos
that Natalie ought to know?  The tomato *was* considered to be poisonous
there for a while.

Sarah
welshkin@d.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:30:20 +0500
From:         John Folden <jtfolden@e.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER:  AtA - Urs

> From: "Roxanne Piccen" <RoxanneP@a.......>
>
> So say what you will about Urs and her intelligence and wide-eyed
> vapid expressions, she was a kind-hearted, sweet soul who had great
> devotion and loyalty for Vachon.  I've grown to like Urs and, goshdarnit,
> I'm going to miss her.

I really liked Urs, as well. When I first saw her I had hoped she would go
on to become a half-way decent replacement for Janette, as there are far too
few good female vamp roles on FK(other than Divia, of course...<grin>). I
thought she was becoming a regular character after I saw Hearts Of Darkness
but sadly, she was allowed to fade into the shadows...until AtA.

Oh, well, at least she went out fighting, stylish and with a great head of
 curls!


John, a demented victorian
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:36:06 -0400
From:         Gehirn Karies <SoulDebris@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes to Ashes spoiler stuff/ramblings

Deb:
>Some times you have to make your own
>sunshine. - Maybe Nick should have tried!)

Nick fell into the sun.  His blood mingled with the rays, and he survived.
It was another FK ethereal Art moment.

That *is* a copy of Yoko's "Grapefuit" on his bookshelf, is it not ... NO?
<wcg>

Gk
SoulDebris@a.......
"Color yourself   wait for spring to come
let us know when it comes"    Yoko Ono, 1964, Grapefruit
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:36:11 -0400
From:         Gehirn Karies <SoulDebris@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes to Ashes: LC and URSE???!!

Sleepy Cousin Michelle:
> Nothing against Urse but she was
>about as intellectually stimualting as an eggplant.  LC can do better.
 Much,

LaCroix impersonation follows. Humour impaired Bail out now!

"Ah, my dear Michelle, there is nothing *more* stimulating than a ravishing
creature who needs an older, more ... experienced hand to guide them on their
journey...."

"As for the eggplant, it is a very fascinating and ancient thangin its own
right."

This was just an humourous impersonation.  Were this a real LaCroix quote,
there would have been vampire floating, and Divia-vision.

> There is just so much to say about this ep!

Aint it tha truth!  BTW I very much enjoyed the slow pained blinking
LaCroix did.  Touching.

Gk
SoulDebris@a.......
"If you can't laugh at yourself, I will."  ~me
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:36:12 -0400
From:         Gehirn Karies <SoulDebris@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes To Ashes: Tracy's memory:to purge or not to purge....

Michelle spoke about Tracy's memory purge:

> Isn't pain a part of life?  I firmly believe the adage "what dosen't kill
>you makes you stronger."

I truly believe that what doesn't kill you just doesn't kill you.  Pain is
relative to the individual.

I do believe Tracy needs more smuggled into her noggin than purged out.  Tracy,
do not wear red.  Tracy, do not wear retro seventies.  Tracy, do not wear the
same color lipstick as your vampire boyfriend, it distracts the veiwers.

>Yes, Tracy is going to have
>painful memories but hopefully she will use them to become a better person.
>Maybe she won't.  Maybe she'll wallow in self-pity for the rest of her life.

That's it!  The spinoff!  Tracy, a brooding mortal cop with a really cute
vampire partner, whose vampireness goes unnoticed by her.  She lost her vampire
lover, and declares a blood vendetta against the vampire community that most
assuredly was responsible for his death. Uh.... Has that been done?

Gk
SoulDebris@a.......
"Fortunately, there are exceptions."  LaCroix, AtA
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 17:56:19 -0700
From:         Lisa Marvin <wyllow@n.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Francesca: Vachon & Tracy (tiny bit AtA, too)

Dotti Rhodes wrote:
>
> At 09:04 AM 5/11/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >      At the end of Fever, Tracy leaves Vachon in bed thinking he's a foot
> from the grave.  In Francesca, they are talking as if no time has passed.
> What gives
> >with the continuity?

At the end of "Fever", Nick came into the church and gave Vachon an
injection of the blood that was supposedly bringing the vampires out
of the illness that had befallen them all.  I assumed that Vachon
"recovered" and then probably let Tracy know that he was well.  (This
was not directly expressed in the subsequent episodes, however.  I
just made the leap myself.)

wyllow@n.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 00:42:00 -0700
From:         BECKY BURNS <becky.burns@w.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoiler: Re: Q (AtA)

 -=>On 05/14/96  19:13, Antonia Spadafina said to All:

 AS> On Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:00:36 -0700  Sherri asked:

 >>I have watched Ashes several times now... and I am just wondering -
 >>just what *does* the graffiti on the door of the Raven say?

 AS> I' m with Sherri.  It looked like Fluid to me too.  All kinds of
 AS> connotations ran thru my head with no satisfying conclusion.  And this
 AS> is the first time I've noticed those words on the door.  Is that a real
 AS> club they use - or just a set?

Sorry for overquoting but I can answer this one!  Honest!

On my recent romp to Toronto for the Shrewthering (Hi Will, Lynne & Co.!)
I along with my riding buddies (Hey Beth!) took a little drive and found the
Raven-well not the Raven-It's a bar known was the Fluid Room.  There's a sign
on the front that looked like this big Nike symbol, blue with gray I think and
on the metal door was written the word "Fluid"

BCB



... "One angry voice is not a revolution; it's only an angry voice."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 22:52:11 -0700
From:         Lisa Marvin <wyllow@n.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes

Carrie Krumtum wrote:
 .
> This was a father and son who cared for each other, who NEEDED each other. It
> was a wonderful scene


Reminds me of these lines:

  "But then what did you want me to forgive you for?"

  "I wanted you to forgive me for being mean," he said, "and having to
be what I am, and do what I have done."  A smile passed over his lips.
"Just as you might ask me to forgive you for being you."

                             R.W.    1935
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 05:00:24 GMT
From:         Jamie Melody Randell <immajer@n.......>
Subject:      LIST: Did you, perhaps, think I was joking?

Just in case I was somehow unclear about the meaning of my previous
listposts:

THERE WILL BE NO UNPLEASANTNESS HERE or on any of the lists for which I am
a designated Mommy.

Let me be very precise about this.

I love you all.  I really do.  Even those of you who make me absolutely
crazy at times.  I love you all, and I love the lists; if I didn't, I
wouldn't be serving as asst. listowner.

And I am, despite the tattooed-tough-b*tch exterior, a kind and caring
person; I feed stray cats and help little old ladies with their groceries,
and I would much rather be giggling than raising my voice in anger.

But there are some things I will not tolerate.

There will be no deliberate maliciousness.
There will be no flagrant ignoring of list rules.
And list subscriptions of violators are being altered accordingly.

Right now, what with the season ending and all, half of us mourning and the
other half in shock, there is NO EXCUSE for purposefully disruptive
behavior; and none will be tolerated.

At times like this, 'If we do not hang together, we shall most assuredly
hang separately.'  And anyone who doesn't believe that... can go hang
themselves.

Period.

Now, as for the rest of you... hug the listmember on your left.  Now hug
the listmember on your right.  Now go get some warm fuzzies.  The URL is
<http://members.aol.com/immajer/warm/fuzzies.html>.

We will survive these troubled times, and be all the stronger for them --
as long as we remember what matters most: our strength is in US, in the
power of our unity and our caring for the show and for each other.  Losing
FK is hard, very very hard, but there's so much we haven't lost... we still
have the Wars, and Real Life, and affiliations, and listparties, and
conventions, and all the other things that make us a community.

Nobody can take THAT away from us... not Sony, not TriStar, not USA, not
the shadowy figures lurking in the background, not anyone.

The only ones who can destroy our community are US, by our actions or our
misdeeds or our apathy.  Y'all really gonna let that happen?

I'm not.  No way.

Hang in there, kids.  We'll make it.  We will.

--
- Jamie M.R. <immajer@n.......> -
- Asst. Listowner, FORKNI-L et al. -
- The Smoking Natpacker; ConvCoS, XPiT -
- Illustrated Webgoddess & Keeper of Warm Fuzzies -
List Rules - http://cac.psu.edu/~jap8/FK/FKRules.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 May 1996 01:05:33 -0400
From:         Chana Rossman <bonney@i.......>
Subject:      SPOILER:  Last Knight

There are spoilers for Last Knight down there, somewhere...













Keep going...




Lisa Wolters wrote:
> I formed my very own Cheesy Rationalization(tm) with which I plan to
> live from now 'til Saturday, when I see the ep, and then for the rest
> of my life.
>RULE #1:  Nick did not let Natalie die or kill her.  Nat's alive.
>RULE #2:  When in doubt, see Rule #1.
Ha.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who is rationalizing like mad.
I've got a whole scenero worked out to explain how what we
think happened in the episode really didn't happen the way it
appeared to.  The sad part is I haven't even seen the blasted
thing yet.


Based on what I've heard, I can't help but feel like the writers
ended up making Nick look rather inept.  He does seem to have a
habit of not being able to control himself in this particular
regard.  (Maybe Natalie should have paid more attention to
Nick's "ex"wife in Dead of Night...)  I firmly believe that Nick's
love and concern for Natalie's well-being would have (and
should have) overpowered any physical desires.  Ah well, I'll
reserve final judgement until Saturday at 2:00 am.

I will add that this Knightie/Natpacker/Nick&Natpacker would
have been happy if the show had ended with a simple passionate
kiss and a lot of promise for the future...

Chana Rossman
bonney@i.......
* I have been one acquainted with the [K]night *
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 01:24:06 -0500
From:         Stephanie Babbitt <stephanie.babbitt@g.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes

Re where vampires go upon dying, Ray noted:
>     Without getting all religious here, I think Vachon himself answered that
>question at the end of "Fever" at Screed's grave.  "See you in Hell, sailor!"

Divia also alludes to this in AtoA. At first, she's talking about keeping
LaCroix alive through eternity, basically so she can torture him. Then she
seems to change her mind and indicates that she will kill him after all.
While thinking along these lines, she tells him something to the effect
that damnation will be a fitting fate for him. LaCroix doesn't disagree.
This says to me that (most) vampires automatically assume they will "go to
hell" (or some equivalent) if and when they die.

Stephanie, now and always a Vaquera, canon be damned
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 May 1996 01:25:39 -0400
From:         Apache <lf@c.......>
Subject:      Re: Vacancy, and not a moment too soon

        Re:  Karen Kasting's post:

Okay, this one gives points, so please allow me to do so as well.

        Sandra, Dotti, -- forgive me for what I say about Nick.  You know
I love the guy, though imho he needs to let his hair grow another eight or
nine inches <g>.


> Remember, Vacant's the one who waxed nostalagic about the good old days of
> easy rape (talk to a rape survivor if you find the notion of rape at all
> romantic or attractive),

        Actually, it was easy kills.  Preferably of women.  And he spoke
of females as objects:  "remember when you could see something like that
and just take her, and not worry about the consequences?"  <nostalgic
sigh, happy flashback to dead babe in hay>.

        Somehow I feel like this scene is at the heart of your hatred of
Vachon. It wasn't a rape -- the woman was there, in his arms in the
stable, willingly.  It was a kill.  And no doubt about it, he preferred
to seduce and kill women, at least at that time (the flashback was dated
1791).  Plus it was ugly -- he made mock of the woman with that "Santa Maria"
purity joke, knowing the whole time he wasn't about to give her a tumble,
but instead was going to drink her dry.  But even then something bugged
him, and he went back and straightened out her head in the hay.

        Who are we comparing him with?  Nick certainly had a growth curve
on the advisability/morality of noshing on nubile babes.  The basement
larder in the Andre flashback was ... well, depraved.  Long time ago, and
he repents it, but there it was.

> who ran away from a vow for *hundreds* of years,

        No vow.  He was lying in the dirt and dying, and some preInca Sun
priestess vampire decides that he and his 'mortal enemy' should be
brothers in murderous blood forever.  No choice.  Then she toasts herself
in the morning sun.  Nice master:  good luck, kids.

> and
> who apparently had *no* regrets about all the killing he had done.

        Yup.   Granted.  Angst-free.

>  Consider
> that after Divia attacked him, Vacant crawled home and commited suicide;

        And why was Divia able to attack him?  Because he tried to help --
in fact, he was worried she'd been bitten by a vampire.

        Other reasonably nice things Vachon has done onscreen:  tried to
give Urs a second, happier life.  Cuddled his dying friend, Screed.
Managed to get Tracy away from him when the First Hunger hit.  Protected
Nick from exposure to his partner by thinking up the little hypno charade
at the end of Black Buddha.  Saved Tracy's life several times.  Shown up
to protect her when he thought she might be in danger from another
vampire.  Fought with the natives of Upper Canada for seventy years, off
and on, and apparently fought with other lost causes over the years.

        Incidentally, it looked like going home and suffering in the
basement was the alternative to going out on a killing spree fueled by
Divia-visions.  He jumped Urs as soon as she came in, and was maybe going
to attack Tracy.  He was doing society a favor by going home.

        We never saw Nick get hit with the same
possession/hallucinations, though it seems that he did and somehow was
able to master them in ways Vachon was not.  Hey, the series *is* Forever
Knight.  He's the hero.


>  Nick pulled himself together after Divia's attack--he must have been in the
> same kind of pain--and went to *save* LaCroix.  Keep the on-screen Vacant
> sorted out from the *imagined* Vacant of fanfic.

        About the on-screen Nick.... but that's another story.

        Fanfic Vachon:  Actually, I sent Vachon off on a one-night/four
person killing spree in one story (in an upset condition, in case he was
asking 'what's my through-line'?<g>), and had him knocking off another
vampire (the one demon-Nick started in on) in another (same old emotional
distress).  Some of us Vaqueras are rather fond of this comfortable
vampire.

        Others see him as pretty much of sweetheart in modern times,
whatever he may have been in the past.  His only modern kill that we've
seen was Vudu, who was just about to kill Tracy and had also pumped a few
bullets into him.   I had the impression that he *would* have gone after
and killed the man who tried to knife Tracy in MBIAV if he hadn't been
on-camera.

>
> Now, if your idea of a Great Guy is a remorseless rapist and murderer who
> cannot keep a promise to a (supposedly holy) woman for 24 hours, that is your
> choice.  My tastes in friends, lovers and hero(ines) are much more
> orthodox--I have expectations of honor, decency and courage,

        If we're talking about Nick, we should also be talking about
indecision, narcissism, selfishness, ingratitude, and inconstancy.  They
don't give Boy Scout badges for those, either.  But those qualities --
the fact that Nick has to *struggle* with a whole plethora of very human
weaknesses to be good -- are what make him a great character.

        Of course, if we're talking about Lacroix, I agree with you.
Within his own world, Lacroix is possessed of all of these qualities.


> and I just
> cannot waste time or myself on decorative types who might look nice out on
> the lawn but who are not to be relied upon or trusted.

        The only truly reliable male in FK is Lacroix.  Are you a Cousin?

        Nick starts to leave town every time things get a little too tense
for him; he gets over it, but he starts to.  Nick also is easily
distracted from his True Love, whether that T.L. be construed as Natalie
or Janette.  His distracted moments are frequently unfortunate for the
females involved:  just ask Alyssa, Marion Blackwing, Emily Weiss....

        Me, I'll take Famous Vachons on the Lawn for $400, Alex.

        Hell, I'd even give $200 for Infamous Vachons on the
Basement Sofa... whaddaya say, Alex?


Apache
=========================================================================

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