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FKSPOILR

Logfile LOG9605 Part 26

May 14, 1996

File: "FKSPOILR LOG9605" Part 26

	TOPICS:
	LIST RULES: 5/13/96 -- Yo! Listen up...
	SPOILER:  Ashes to Ashes  (Urs)
	Francesca notes
	LIST: warmth and fuzziness-apology
	Spoiler: Ashes To Ashes
	Ashes to Ashes spoiler stuff/ramblings  (3)
	ADMIN:  READ ME OR UNCLE'S GONNA GET YOU!
	SPOILER: LAST KNIGHT  (4)
	Spoiler: Francesca, Jane Doe, Last Knight
	Spoiler -- AtA and incest, what next?
	Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes -- serious
	LAST KNIGHT reaction
	Spoilers: A to A  (3)
	ADMIN: and Spoiler: AtA
	Spoilers: AtA-Kathryn Long
	SPOILERS: Ashes to Ashes (ep 21) LaCroix
	Ashes to Ashes  (2)
	Spoilers:  Fran., AtA and blood knowledge.

=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 06:36:57 GMT
From:         Jamie Melody Randell <immajer@n.......>
Subject:      LIST RULES: 5/13/96 -- Yo! Listen up...

<Crash!>  <Thud!>

Hark!  What's that noise?

It's the sound of list rules being shattered and smashed and stomped upon.
It's a rather loud noise, and it's disturbing the hamsters.  Not to
mention, the assistant listowner...

For your enlightenment and edification, here's the latest version of the
List Rules.  Read 'em.  Save 'em.  Tattoo 'em on your arms.  Whatever needs
to be done.

You are all expected to be aware of these rules, and to follow them.
Violators WILL be prosecuted.  Seriously.  I am becoming ANNOYED.  (Despite
the chocolate.)

Elaboration on the FORKNI-L list rules can be found at
http://cac.psu.edu/~jap8/FK/FKRules.html

Warm Fuzzies available at http://members.aol.com/immajer/warm/fuzzies.html

And have a nice day.

 ===========================================================================
FOREVER KNIGHT MAILING LIST RULES (Partial) - Revised 5/13/96
General: forkni-l@p.......
FanFiction: fkfic-l@p.......
NewEpisodeSpoilers: fkspoilr@p.......

These rules are *NOT* to be considered complete, just the barest
essentials:

1:  BE NICE.  PLAY FAIR.  NO FLAMING.  We don't do that here.

2:  QUOTING PREVIOUS POSTS: Copy four lines at a time ONLY.  Do NOT quote
another person's entire post in your reply.

3:  NO PERSONAL REPLIES TO THE LISTS: Except for emergencies.  You have a
message to one particular person, send it via private e-mail.  When
replying to mail, check your e-mail CAREFULLY to make sure you're not
cc'ing your post to the list.

4:  NO SOLICITATION: No advertisements for any sort of profit-making
ventures.

5:  SIG LENGTHS: Five lines TOPS, including all text, symbols and blank
lines.



FORKNI-L Specific Rules

6:  NO FICTION: Discussion of fiction is okay. Posting of actual fiction is
not.

7:  NO SPOILERS: No Ashes-to-Ashes, no Last Knight, NADA ZIP ZERO.  If in
doubt, post to FKSPOILR.



FKFIC-L Specific Rules

8: NO DISCUSSION: All posts that are NOT FICTION must go to FORKNI-L or
FKSPOILR.

9:  ADULT STORIES MUST HAVE THE ADULT TOPIC:  your subject line MUST begin
with "ADULT:" in exactly that format (omitting quotes).

10:  STORIES CONTAINING SPOILERS MUST BE LABELED ACCORDINGLY: in the
subject line, and in the beginning of the story, with the name<s> of the
eps you're spoiling.

11:  FORMATTING FOR FICTION POSTED TO FKFIC-L:  Line lengths set to margins
that are no more than 60 characters wide, posts no longer than 250 lines.
Label your stories in the format (01/16) or something similar for easier
cataloguing.


FKSPOILR Specific Rules

12:  BE NICE:  Repeated here again for EXTRA EMPHASIS.

13:  LABEL SPOILERS: as to which episode you're spoiling.

14:  SPOILERS ONLY ON THE SPOILER LIST: non-spoiler discussion goes to
forkni-l, fiction to fkfic-l.

15:  POSTING FREQUENCY:  While there is no pre-set limit to how many times
you may post in one day, it is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED that you limit yourself
to three posts per day on the spoiler list at this time.


These rules are subject to change at any time, and for any reason, as
decreed by Jaye The Listowner <jap8@c.......>, and are enforced by
either Jaye or assistant listowner Jamie M. Randell
<immajer@n.......> as required.  Questions about the lists can be
directed to <forkni-l-request@p.......> and will be forwarded to a
listowner for disposition.

Don Fasig <phase3@g.......> is the officially-designated ListWizard; he
handles technical problems such as bounced mail that would otherwise
detract from the efficiency of the list.  If you're having technical
trouble with your subscription, you can contact him directly or through the
forkni-l-request@p.......> address.

Any questions?  Ask away.

--
- Jamie M.R. <immajer@n.......> -
- Asst. Listowner, FORKNI-L -
- The Smoking Natpacker, Convert of the CoS -
- Illustrated Webgoddess & Keeper of Warm Fuzzies -
List Rules - http://cac.psu.edu/~jap8/FK/FKRules.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 02:57:31 -0400
From:         Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject:      SPOILER:  Ashes to Ashes  (Urs)

     I'm catching up on the weekend's mail, and I have to go study the inside
of my eyelids for holes for a while, but before I go, a rememberance:

Urs -
Dear, Delicious, Dense, Urs
You needed a better "father" than Vachon
Perhaps after another century with Lacroix's influence --
You preyed on men who would have preyed on you,
But fell victim to a more vicious hunter -
Now the death you long sought, but could never embrace has claimed you,
You will shine in the night no longer.
Urs -
Dear, Delicious, Dense, Urs
Goodbye

     Perhaps this belongs on FKFIC-L, but after mjay's tirade about "spoiler"
fiction, I figure I'd put it here.

  --  Ray
   Nat Vamp Camp
    Ursine for a day
     Rage!  Rage!  Against the dying of the Knight!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 02:57:52 -0400
From:         Ray Heuer <RayHeuer@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Francesca notes

> Did anyone notice that the hockey-related mugs on Reese's desk ....

     And did anyone notice that they were mugs with the logos of the Toronto
Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens?  I'm not sure, but I imagine that this
would be like a New York City police captain's desk sporting mugs with the
logos of the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox.

  -- Ray
   Nat Vamp Camp

     Rage!  Rage!  Against the dying of the Knight!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 02:09:05 -0500
From:         Sandra Gray <TMP_HARKINS@d.......>
Subject:      Re: LIST: warmth and fuzziness-apology

Gay Eckes writes:
>Have seen the actress that plays Divia *somewhere* before.

She appeared in "The Haunted Mask", the first episode of the children's
series, Goosebumps (which my daughter loves).

--Sandra Gray, forever Knightie
--tmp_harkins@d.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 00:17:00 -0700
From:         "Eric L. Steglat" <thetiger@e.......>
Subject:      Spoiler: Ashes To Ashes

Hi Everyone,
Wow! I just caught up on about a month's worth of Digests today.  Took the
day off from work (car repairs, you know), and have spent the preceding 6
hours catching up...
So, to jump into the spoiler discussion fray with both feet...
First of all, let me just say that I saw the final episodes more than a
month ago now.  I've now seen Ashes about 8 or 9 times as I did up spoiler
requests for various people...

INSERTING SPOILER SPACE NOW.....

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

P

A

C

E

!
Not sure if this is entirely necessary, but anyway...

First off--to my fellow Vaqueras.  The pain of losing Vachon does fade with
time.  Just watch the episode a few more times to get used to the idea, then
go back and reread Apache's rationalizations for why he isn't really dead.
As soon as she first asked me if Tracy pulled the stake out at any point, it
hit me.  Tracy pulled the stake out, you can *bet* she didn't cut off his
head, and she *buried*, not burned him.  Voila! He can come back.  My theory
is that he is in a Divia induced coma from the trauma she inflicted upon
him.  He should wake up sooner, not later.  This theory would also hold true
for Urs, but for the fact that I think Nat's most probable course for
"taking care of the body" would be incineration...Oops.
        Also, I think it is incredibly typical in how Divia trapped Vachon
in the first place.  He may profess to staying away from causes, but he is
basically a good guy at heart.  He sees a "child" crying in an alley, he
goes to help.  One of the most telling bits to that scene, I thought, was
when he looked up at all the darkened windows, and saw that no one was
helping. Of course, the shock on his face when he realized what she could
do, also spoke volumns.
        As to the point that has been raised by several people: Why can
Tracy tell that LaCroix and Vachon contain an inherent sense of evil, but
can't see that in Nick? I have a simple answer. Because LC and V are both
comforatble with their vampire status, and thus do little to hide their
nature, while Nick is the opposite. Maybe she has trouble sensing it,
because he works so hard at hiding it, even from himself. Plus, familiarity
does breed contempt.  I think she's just used to being around him so much at
work that she doesn't pick up on those nuances...
        Twice, while LaCroix was in the Raven, in the beginning, I could
almost hear Darth Vader: "I sense something. A presence I've not felt since..."
        Was it just me, or did anyone else think there was anything going on
between Urs and LaCroix?  Vachon's hasty assurace of "It's not what you
think", almost made me think he was like a guilty man caught with someone
else's wife. However, not that he would have much to be guilty about, since
he did bring Urs across, but if she did have a current, on going thing with
LaCroix, I would think Vachon would be careful not to piss off a much more
powerful vampire...
        Saddest line for me was when Nick told Nat about Vachon's death, and
that Tracy had no one she could talk to about it.  Having been put into
positions before, of not being able to talk about painful things with
anyone, it really struck a chord with me...
        Oh, and by the way, I think this now explains why Ben Bass seemed
almost detached in Francesca.  Not too easy to go from this kind of intense
acting, to turning around and pretending nothing's changed. Of course, I
think he's a wonderful actor who pulled it off, but that may be why others
thought he was "quiet" in Francesca.
        I'd like to add my kudos to the writing, directing, and acting in
this episode, as so many others have already said it.  Kathryn Long has a
*tremendous* future ahead of her...
        Finally, by the 4th or 5th viewing of the episode, I was finally
able to start looking for things like WARM FUZZIES.  I think I spotted one.
When Vachon calls Tracy at the station, to tell her he knows who the killer
is, there is a shot over her shoulder at her desk.  On the desk, she has a
pencil can.  And stuck to the pencil can is a black "weepil". (That's what
we called them when I was a teen-ager). IS THIS A WARM FUZZY?  Confirmation,
please.
        Enough for now,
Jenn--the occasionally responsible Vaquera...

**************************************************************************
  "The Tiger"  From EarthLink Net  |          and "KitFox" (Jenn)
   "thetiger@e......."        |"Tracy?"       "Javier?"
Tiger, Tiger, Burning Bright   | "Wish me luck..."
In the Forest of the Night...  | --Ashes To Ashes
***************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 06:58:40 -0400
From:         Dotti Rhodes <dottir@w.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes to Ashes spoiler stuff/ramblings

At 04:13 AM 5/14/96 GMT, you wrote:

>Does anyone know what that song was that was playing in the Raven?

The song was "The Hunger" and can be found on the FK Soundtrack.  One of my
absolute favorites.


>Divia's mother was from a brothel???? Where'd ya see that at?

In the original episode from the 2nd season "A More Permanent Hell" where we
first saw those scenes it is more in depth and find all that info out.
.
>Erasing the memory: Personally that would be a blessing.

I agree too.  I liken it to real life...I had a very, very close friend
commit suicide by hanging himself.  I would give almost anything to forget
that's what happened to him. I'd rather feel he'd jerked me around and took
off than to have to constantly remember and have these flashes in my mind of
him at the end of a rope. I can never see a scene in a movie, tv show or
read it in a book where my mind automatically changes the characters face to
Karson's.  So, I too would believe it was a blessing to think he had just
taken off..

Dotti R
Knightie 4-Ever
dottir@w.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 07:13:17 -0400
From:         The Phoenix <jap8@c.......>
Subject:      ADMIN:  READ ME OR UNCLE'S GONNA GET YOU!

#1:  BEHAVE!

#2:  WATCH WHERE YOU PUT YOUR DARNED SPOILERS!

#3:  BE NICE! (See Subject)

#4:  Send Jamie lots of chocolate or cigarettes (or both)!

#5:  Stuff your temper in the trash can! (See #3)

#6:  There is no number 6!

#7:  IT'S ONLY A TV SHOW!  (ow, ow, ow!)

#8:  ACT YOUR AGE, NOT MY BROTHER'S IQ!

This lesson in how to behave on my lists was brought to you by the letters
A and Z, and by the number 4.

/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
  The Tastiest Crayon, Her Royal Redness, Jaye the First, the Phoenix.
             jap8@c....... // http://cac.psu.edu/~jap8/
                                MIAWOL.
/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 07:21:47 -0500
From:         Deb Kroll <demona@e.......>
Subject:      SPOILER: LAST KNIGHT

WAAAA!!!!!!! I just saw last Knight and let me tell you, have tissues ready!  I
can't belive they did this. I was balling my eyes out at the end.
The only part I REALLY liked was when Nat says "Make Love to me Nick". Some of
those Nat/Nick scenes had me floored!  This one is definately a keeper, but be
warned that ending is SO sad waaaaaaa!!!! :`(



demona@e.......

-------------oO-OO*OO-Oo-----------------
Demona@e.......  -- CompUSA Technician
Gargoyles fan ** Forever Knight Fan
------------//oOO-*-OOo\\----------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 08:53:05 -0400
From:         "Gaylin J. Walli" <gjwalli@m.......>
Subject:      Spoiler: Francesca, Jane Doe, Last Knight

Apache(?), oh geez, someone asked what Hollyhocks meant in the
language of flowers. I admit I haven't been to careful about who`s
said what, but for what it's worth, Hollyhocks were meant to symbolize
fruitfulness or female ambition (actually the white hollyhocks were for
the later specifically).

Stupid questions: I'm trying to make sure the Known Vampire list
is up-to-date on the FK Website. I checked the list rules, so I
think I'm okay asking about all of these episodes. Somebody smack
me if I screw up...I've missed a bunch of episodes so I'm going on
the kindness of strangers as to what has happened...

Francesca was a real vampire that Nick accidently killed in what
year? Sometime during the 1700s? Do we know how old she was? So who
was Lisa?

Vachon gets it, but who does it? Divia? Does anyone else get it?
Who does Divia? Did Divia do her master, The Ancient one, and if
so, during what year? Do we find out if it's a male or a female
Ancient One? What happens to Urs? Who else did Divia do, anyone?

Are there any other new vampires that I've forgotten about?

I need to ask a specific question about a vampire in Last Knight,
but I'm not sure if it's cool to do so yet. I checked the spoiler
list rules which are silent, but it seems a shame to spoil things
for everyone if I'm one of two people who's seen it. Can someone who's
seen it please contact me privately about it?

Thanks in advance for you help with the web page.

Jasmine, Faithful Ravenette, gjwalli@m.......
http://www.hu.mtu.edu/~gjwalli/fktoc.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 08:59:50 -0400
From:         Marf Shopmyer <aa108460@d.......>
Subject:      Spoiler -- AtA and incest, what next?

From:         Loose Cannon <LoosCanN@a.......>
Subject:      Spoiler:  Ashes to Ashes and incest.

"Plus, _she_ was the aggressor, he had
just heard her say she had destroyed her maker, which he found appalling, and
he definitely seemed uncomfortable about the evil he felt in the tomb.  I
think it was a combination of these things that made him lose control and
kill her."

It would certainly make me think about threshing off more than John
Barleycorn's head.  If LC ever thought he had any control over Divia,
this would be an eye opener.  She will kill anything to get what she
wants.  The prospect of eternity being in the thrall of your scruple-less
daughter, forced to be her love slave or die, could force anyone to take
extreme measures.  And LC learns to his cost that they were just not
extreme enough.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 09:23:45 -0400
From:         Apache <lf@c.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoilers: Ashes to Ashes -- serious

On Tue, 14 May 1996, Janette Z wrote:

> In a message dated 96-05-12 05:33:42 EDT, you write:
>
> >>V: "Tracy?
> >>T: <mumble mumble>
> >>V: "Wish me luck."
> >
> >She says: "I'm here"


        She says "Javier..." *really badly* and it sounds like "I'm here.."

>   That's odd.  I put my TV on closed caption to try and figure it out, and
> THAT said that she said "I love you."  It doesn't SOUND like that's what
> she's saying though.  It sounds more like Javier, though terribly said.  It
> COULD be I'm here.  Just thought I'd tell you what my TV's saying.

        Bonnie Pardoe mentioned this too.  I guess we'll have to see a
script to figure out where 'I love you' came from.  I'm wondering if it
isn't supposed to go where "Wish me luck" is now -- a smart script change
at the last minute, like Harrison Ford's altering "I love you too" to "I
know" at the end of the second Star Wars movie.  For the source of the
change, my money would be on Michael Sadowski -- author of my favorite
line in "Blackwing:"  "She senses a darkness around you -- are you
married, Detective?"

Ap.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 06:36:17 -0700
From:         Roxanne Piccen <CHIRMP@a.......>
Subject:      Re: LAST KNIGHT reaction

Valery wrote:
>Don't read this if you want to come to this "cold".  I
>really don't want to ruin anything for anyone, and you
>might find it depressing.

Please, please, please, when some of your anger has
subsided, post to the list what happened in this ep to
produce such strong feelings.  I prefer to know bad news
in advance so I can better prepare for the impact.  (It
actually did help somewhat knowing what was coming with
AtA.  At least I wasn't caught completely off guard.)

Roxanne

RoxanneP@a....... (Home) // CHIRMP@a....... (Work)
*********************************************************
Save Forever Knight! // Save American Gothic!  Check out:
http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html
http://www.best.com/~owls for The Trinity Guardian
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 09:55:24 -0400
From:         cpl <cpl@b.......>
Subject:      Spoilers: A to A

     Dottie wanted to know where I got the homosexuality and pediphilia.


     OK -- first, Hi Dottie! :)  --  I'm not going to argue this forever,
     BUT, if these characters were not vampires (that is to say that *we*
     know that whatever normal relations they had as mortals kind of gets
     tossed out the window when they're brought across i.e. Divia is the
     master/mother figure and the equivalent of 2000 years old so we don't
     see their behavior as out of the ordinary for FK vampires), it would
     be hard to miss the implications of some sort of homosexuality between
     Nick and LC and the implied pediphilia between Divia and LC.  I"m
     *not* saying that they (Nick and LC) had/have been/are/were in this
     episode making love, nor am I saying that the moment that two people
     of the opposite sex show some sort of physical sign of affections,
     then automatically it's homosexual in some way.  However, the touching
     in this episode and the looks on their face implied more than is
     normally allowed to be implied on TV IMHO which pushes it in that
     direction.  As for the other pairing, the same:  Yes, *we* know that
     Divia is 35 years old or something at that point, but she sure looks
     about 15 or younger maybe, and even if there is some sort of
     rationalization about events, I think that it's impossible to miss
     these implications.  I think all this can go both ways, but my gut
     reaction was and is as stated.  I don't think that any of these issues
     was *explored* in any real sense (nor should have they been b/c it
     wasn't really important) but the fact that they were touched upon and
     implied, I think is pretty daring since this was not a movie of the
     week concerning the issue of the week but taking place in *normal*
     (normal, hee hee) context.

     To sum up: I would say that there was no homosexuality nor pedephila
     nor incest if we take everything on the vampire plane of existence,
     but looking at it from a TV point of view and without rationalizing it
     knowing that they are vampires, I think that it's very possible to see
     it and that in and of itself is different.  Furthermore, am I the
     *only* one who's eyes opened up wider when she said "make love to me,
     father?"  This is weird since she said "father" and in a vampire
     context, she's the parental figure, but this says to me that there are
     no absolutely clear lines where the mortal relationships ends and the
     vampire relationships begins (since even the vampires themselves in
     the show can't shed the old completely), so there's room for what I
     gleaned from the episode.  Anyway, I admit to everyone that I found
     the Nick and LC stuff erotic (and judging from my private
     conversations with several of you guys, I'm not alone). ;)

     ping
     cpl@b.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 10:01:23 -0400
From:         Apache <lf@c.......>
Subject:      Re: ADMIN: and Spoiler: AtA

On Tue, 14 May 1996, The Phoenix wrote:

>
> #6:  There is no number 6!
>
        Talk about spoilers!  So this means that last episode wasn't just
a fantasy/drug induced hallucination, and he really *did* launch a
missile from the grounds of the Village?  Funny, I was in Portmeirion-
Penrhyndeudraeth around then, and didn't see any scorch marks a-'tall.

Ap.
McGoohan fan

ObFKspoiler:  loved it when Vachon rapidly checked Divia's neck for
bitemarks when he was asking if she was OK -- hey, this *is* the alley by
the Raven, after all.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 09:05:37 -0500
From:         Sarah Welsh <welshkin@d.......>
Subject:      Spoilers: AtA-Kathryn Long

On Tue, 14 May 1996, Sandra Gray wrote:

> She appeared in "The Haunted Mask", the first episode of the children's
> series, Goosebumps (which my daughter loves).

Oh my gosh!  That was her?  Divia was Carlie Beth?  (Yes, I watched it.
The amount of Real Life that I have fluctuates alarmingly.)  How very
very different she looks.  Wow.  She *is* a good actress.  Certainly in
no danger of being type cast.

*giggle*  Just thought of the gimmick in that show of the quasi-bust that
her mother made of Carlie Beth.  How very apropos to the AMPH flashback
and Lucius' bust being broken.  Of course, Sandra and I are liable to be
the only two who know what I'm talking about...

Sarah
welshkin@d.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 07:49:51 -0700
From:         Cynthia Hoffman <choff@v.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILERS: Ashes to Ashes (ep 21) LaCroix

I can't believe I'm going to do this yet again ... but I am.

Sandra Gray wrote:

> First, as I said in my review of the episode, I liked seeing LC
> admit that Divia had inherited his *evil*.  And this was an opinion
> LC had of himself *before* he was brought over apparently.

I noted that as well.  What I noted was that LC listed things he had done
as a Roman General, things that were to his mind horrible acts done in the
name of a state that was admittedly, rather mean-spirited, even in the
best of times, to those it conquered.  But the evil that LC talked about
didn't strike me as an admission of how totally evil he thought he was,
just what kind of evil he was capable of.  And he DREW THE LINE at the
kind of evil his daughter was capable of.  It's why he killed her.

> this admission.  But LC apparently considered Divia a "chip off the
> old block" who was made even *worse* by the vampire who brought her
> over giving her the power to indulge her "evil" more.

That's a bit of an exaggeration.  He says she "inherited" the evil from
him, not that she's a chip off the old block.  That's your reading of it,
right?

> I think this episode gives LC another and perhaps a deeper reason
> for bringing over Nick.  He wanted the opposite of what he got in
> life: a "good son" instead of an "evil daughter".

While that's always possible, it tends to oversimplify the character of
both of them.  Nick is not "good" any more than Lacroix is "evil."

> This episode also impacts on the character tendency that I (and some
> other people) have observed for LC to want Nick in a sexual way.

Yes.

> I find myself wondering now if, due to what happened with Divia, LC
> has been leery of initiating any sort of sexual relationship with
> Nick for fear that Nick would react as he himself reacted to Divia.

But Nick isn't his son in the human way, only in the vampire way.  It's
not incest in the same way that being with Divia would be.  It's entirely
possible that given time, LC would have come around to Divia's way of
thinking anyway (although I rather doubt it given Roman incest
prohibitions) but in the case of Nick, if LC was interested in him that
way, he would have him that way.  You don't raise those same objections
regarding Laacroix's feelings about Janette or Francesca, do you?  Why
raise them about Nick?

> The last thing I found myself thinking about was how this episode's
> flashback impacts on the flashback in first season's Dead Air.

It was a striking parallel, one that I noticed on first viewing AtA.  I
think knowing that that kind of scene occurred two generations running in
the same family makes LC's pain over having disposed of Divia more
striking to me and his pain more real as well.

> I do have to confess to not feeling any sympathy for LC in AtA.
> Mostly I guess I was just perplexed because he seemed to me to be out
> of character a good deal of the time.  Had I felt sympathy for him like
> I did in Father's Day, I may have hated AtA.

This absolutely floors me.  I have trouble understanding how anyone could
come away from this episode not having some sympathy for the man.  Even
Nick, who has periodically hated him had sympathy for him.  And what
exactly was out of character about him in this episode?

> Yes, I like LC to be evil. :)

But there's a difference between evil and one dimensional, isn't there?

Cynthia
Cynthia Hoffman/choff@v.......
Raven ** IB ** MBDtK
We cater to the occasional fetishist
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 10:52:41 -0400
From:         Dotti Rhodes <dottir@w.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoilers: A to A

Okay, Ping, I see where you're coming from.  I don't think I agree totally,
but I do understand your thought process (and for me that's saying a lot,
believe me...:) )

I have always enjoyed those little moments between LC and Nick that could be
taken either way, wiping blood from Nicks mouth with his finger and sucking
it, the way he touched Nick's face thru the jail cell, etc. And I've read
some of the fiction posted on JADFE re the same thing.  I think they're
erotic in nature and could be taken that the trio we all know and love could
have been a trio in every sense of the word.

I don't know if I really think it happened, but I can definitely see where
one could make a strong argument for it.  Ladies, think of lucky Janette.....


Dotti R
Knightie 4-Ever
dottir@w.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 11:17:17 +0500
From:         John Folden <jtfolden@e.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: LAST KNIGHT

> From: "Deb Kroll" <demona@e.......>
>
> WAAAA!!!!!!! I just saw last Knight and let me tell you, have tissues ready! I
> can't belive they did this. I was balling my eyes out at the end.
> The only part I REALLY liked was when Nat says "Make Love to me Nick". Some of
> those Nat/Nick scenes had me floored!  This one is definately a keeper, but be
> warned that ending is SO sad waaaaaaa!!!! :`(

I read a pretty detailed spoiler that also mentioned Nat saying that line above.
I had *hoped* that the PTB would smarten up and realize what a great ending they
would have if they rolled credits right after she said that line. It would have
left it completely open to speculation.

In the original spoiler I saw, it had Nick taking too much blood from Nat, and
then actually going back for more to finish her off rather than bringing her
accross.

Someone else said that later it was edited and Nick didn't go back for the
second drink....????? Did he?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 10:39:44 -0600
From:         Deb Rowland <drowland@a.......>
Subject:      Ashes to Ashes

Just an observation: For someone who wanted to die just a few episodes ago,
Urs did a great job of trying ot fight off Divia ( in point of fact, the
only one who even tried).

Deb    Knightie with strong Cousinly urges
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 12:45:34 -0400
From:         "Carol A. Morrison" <morrison@a.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: LAST KNIGHT

John Folden asked--

>In the original spoiler I saw, it had Nick taking too much blood from Nat, and
> then actually going back for more to finish her off rather than bringing
> her accross.
>Someone else said that later it was edited and Nick didn't go back for the
> second drink....????? Did he?

S

P

O

I

L

E

R


S

P

A

C

E


No, Nick doesn't go back for a second drink.  He leans down and kisses
Natalie on her right check and tells LaCroix "I can't condemn her to this
darkness."


Tracy's last words to Nick -- "You...could have trusted me."

Nick's last words to Natalie -- "I won't leave you.  Whatever happens, we'll
be together."

Natalie's last word to Nick -- "Forever."

Nick's last words to LaCroix -- "No.  Not the Devil, Lacroix."  (Lacroix:
"What then") Nick:  "You...are my closest friend."

Lacroix's last words to Nicholas -- "Damn you, Nicholas."
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 12:31:48 -0400
From:         Naomi P Kraus <npk1@c.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes to Ashes spoiler stuff/ramblings

I was very curious when I saw Divia smoking without her body actually
going up in ashes.  Any thoughts?

N.P. Kraus
npk1@c.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 12:47:35 +0500
From:         John Folden <jtfolden@e.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes to Ashes

> From: "Deb Rowland" <drowland@a.......>
> Just an observation: For someone who wanted to die just a few episodes ago,
> Urs did a great job of trying ot fight off Divia ( in point of fact, the
> only one who even tried).

Quite true! I believe a psychology teacher of mine once said something along
the lines of "People who say they wish to die are often the ones who wish to
live the most". I would imagine it matters quite a bit "how" you die, as well.

John
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 11:47:21 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Spoilers: A to A

At 09:55 AM 5/14/96 -0400, cpl wrote:


>       Anyway, I admit to everyone that I found
>     the Nick and LC stuff erotic (and judging from my private
>     conversations with several of you guys, I'm not alone). ;)


No, you're definately not alone.  Just wanted to point out there are
also those of us who find the Nick and LC stuff not erotic, just very,
very loving.

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
N&NPacker
The Unnamed Faction
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 13:13:55 -0400
From:         Dotti Rhodes <dottir@w.......>
Subject:      Re: Ashes to Ashes spoiler stuff/ramblings

At 12:31 PM 5/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I was very curious when I saw Divia smoking without her body actually
>going up in ashes.  Any thoughts?
>
When was she smoking? Did I miss something again?

Dotti R
Knightie 4-Ever
dottir@w.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 13:22:24 -0400
From:         Loose Cannon <LoosCanN@a.......>
Subject:      Spoilers:  Fran., AtA and blood knowledge.

This may have already been covered.  I'm on digest, which tends to exacerbate
my already endemic confusion.  <g>

There must be a way for vampires to shield themselves, their memories, etc.,
when they exchange blood, or Nick would have already known about Divia.  My
impression is only images, not clear, linear thoughts are passed, but
something as ... traumatic, defining (?) as LC's murder of Divia would have
to come through unless there was a way for him to seal that off.  Nick was
surprised again and again by what LC was saying and doing during AtA.

Leslie
(LoosCanN@a.......)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 May 1996 10:28:33 -0700
From:         LC Fenster <lucienlc@i.......>
Subject:      Re: SPOILER: LAST KNIGHT

>S
>
>P
>
>O
>
>I
>
>L
>
>E
>
>R
>
>
>S
>
>P
>
>A
>
>C
>
>E
>

>>In the original spoiler I saw, it had Nick taking too much blood from
>>Nat, and then actually going back for more to finish her off
>>Someone else said that later it was edited and Nick didn't go back
>>for the second drink....????? Did he?

>No, Nick doesn't go back for a second drink.  He leans down and kisses
>Natalie on her right check and tells LaCroix "I can't condemn her to
>this darkness."

It's not quite that clear.  The way it was shot, frankly, you can't
tell.  Nick leans over her, and since the shot is from behind, you
can't tell what he's doing, though I think he is drinking.  It seems to
match the script, where he is NOT vamped out when he takes the second
drink.   But it is ambiguous, and if one wants to believe that he's
only kissing her, one can.  Certainly, at the end, when he rises, he
was kissing her.

However, what is not ambiguous is the fact that LC told him he had a
choice: bring her across or let her die, and he chose to let her die.
Whether he drank again or not.  "I can't condemn her to this darkness."


Laurie, who knew what was coming, but still got depressed
"Oh, Nicholas.  You have thought this through, haven't you?"
"What?  And spoil the fun?"
         from the Last Knight blooper script
=========================================================================

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