FORKNI-L
Digest - 25 Aug 2010 to 26 Aug 2010 (#2010-157)
Thu, 26 Aug 2010
There are 11 messages totalling 365 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Do you get a choice?
2. My FK moment (actually daily :)
3. Susan Garrett
4. war: October (early)
5. war: Forthcoming War (2)
6. War: Proposed War Rules
7. WAR: Forthcoming War (2)
8. Admin: Urgent -- MCLISA'S NEW ADDRESS
9. War: Factions control headquarters
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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:32:51 -0400
From: Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Re: Do you get a choice?
On 9 August 2010, Megan Hull wrote:
Several authors have used the assumption that a person has to give their
permission to become a vampire (consent freely given, I think the phrase is).
Is there anything in the show to back this up, or is it strictly speculation?
Several people have responded to this, including Kristen Fife, who said, "My
take on it is not that you have to give the vampire master consent, but that
the choice comes at the crossroads of life and death."
There's no question that, in "Near Death", Nick found himself at this
crossroads--well, a door, to be precise--and was instructed to make a
choice. Here's the critical bit of dialogue:
FLASHBACK--EXT. DESERT
Nick walks forward, and then stops, looking at the Guide standing in the
open doorway.
NICK: Who are you? What is this place?
GUIDE: Come to us, and you'll know. Choose to return to the evil that
awaits you, and you will be lost.
NICK: What do you offer me?
GUIDE: The choice.
Definitely--a choice. But choice of what? Bearing in mind that there are
those who did *not* want to become vampires (Serena and Urs come to mind),
the ambiguity of the Guide's words has to be considered highly significant.
At no point did s/he explain to Nick that the choice was between going to
death (and gaining eternal life) or awakening to life (and gaining eternal
undeath).
One could argue that, off scene, rather more had been explained to Nick
before LaCroix bit him than we ever saw--and hence that the Guide didn't
really have to spell it all out, since Nick already knew the nature of his
choice. However, one can hardly say that of Serena, who clearly had
*nothing* explained to her, or Urs, who asked Vachon to kill her. However,
*if* the visions of "Near Death" were shared by other vampires--and we all
know how *scrupulously* consistent the scriptwriters always were!--then both
Serena and Urs presumably *must* have had some sort of crossroads/black
door/Guide/choice vision while hovering between life and death. For
whatever reason, neither made the choice to go through the door. In
Serena's case, given that she had no idea that vampirism was involved, she
may simply have thought she was choosing life over death. Urs may, in the
pinch, have realized that she really wasn't as wedded to the thought of
dying as she'd believed. If the Guide spoke to each of them as ambiguously
as s/he did to Nick, it is easy to see how they wound up choosing to
live--and inadvertently choosing unlife.
On the other hand, there is no doubt that *some* characters do know what
they are getting into--well, at least up to a point. Most obviously, *Nick*
was asked. He didn't grasp the implications, of course; but LaCroix and
Janette definitely talked to him ahead of time, and an offer was made.
There are other episodes in which the matter of consent is brought up. For
example, in the flashback to "Fever", Nick wants to bring across Gerald
Archer because he's been so devoted to fighting the plague; and Nick feels
that, as a vampire--unable to catch the disease--Archer will be able to do
so much more. However, although this is obviously Nick's idea, he and
LaCroix sound the man out *before* bringing him over. Indeed, LaCroix
explicitly refers to the matter of consent "freely given". Again, in "Dead
of Night", Nick asks Alyssa on their wedding night before trying to bring
her across; and, in "A More Permanent Hell", Divia explicitly asks LaCroix.
For that matter, one can reasonably argue that Nick *thought* he had
Serena's consent.
What is noteable about these instances, though, is their deliberation.
These are people who are brought across on purpose. There is a personal
bond *before* they are brought over; and one may assume that at least some
of these are people will then be "family" (of a sort), at least for a time.
For this, one surely wants consent. The alternative is to have an
*unwilling* new member of the family, which would be quite disruptive. Even
if one is not intending a permanent relationship, one would presumably not
want to make an eternal enemy: asking consent is simply sensible.
However, we also have, in other episodes, instances of people who are
brought across but *not* asked for consent: Alexandra, Jack the Ripper.
Others are uncertain: Rasputin, Tran. LaCroix seems quite willing to turn
people into vampires simply out of curiosity, to see what will happen. Jack
is a particularly interesting case, since he is attacked and nearly drained
without LaCroix even being certain that he will come across, though he
obviously fears the possibility. Clearly no consent was involved in that
case.
Perhaps one needs to distinguish here between choice and consent. These are
not quite the same thing. We have characters who are attacked and
semi-drained (no consent), semi-drained and given blood while unconscious
(no consent), and turned on a whim (dubious consent); as well as characters
who are courted and questioned, and ultimately do give their consent--and
free consent, too, albeit not quite *informed* consent. All this happens in
the waking world, as a transaction (whether willing or forced) between
vampire and mortal. Choice, on the other hand, takes place between life
and death--depicted (perhaps metaphorically) as another plane of existence
with a door through which one does or does not pass. The choice made there
is *not* a transaction, since the Guide leaves the choice completely up to
the dying mortal. "What do you offer me?" asks Nick, for LaCroix had
offered him eternal life. He expects to hear the Guide's counteroffer; but
the Guide only offers choice.
Of course, *we* tend to use the phrase "informed consent"; and it's obvious
that vampires don't bother so much with the full "informed" bit. Just
"consent" will do them. What's maybe less obvious is that, judging by the
dialogue, the Guide doesn't bother with "informed", either. Just "choice"
will do.
Greer
gwatson2@r.......
http://www.foreverknight.org/FK4/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:34:57 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: My FK moment (actually daily :)
As I was walking down the hall to the copier, I saw a small metal bin made by
'brabantia'.
:)
Kristen Fife
Find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter (employeeze) and Plaxo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:56:27 +0000
From: chimel23@c.......
Subject: Susan Garrett
A little late, but I was sad to hear of her passing, even though I didn't know
her.
Mel
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:07:25 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: war: October (early)
Works for me :)
Kristen Fife
Find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter (employeeze) and Plaxo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:29:12 -0500
From: Cousin Tok <tokaara@c.......>
Subject: Re: war: Forthcoming War
>McLisa asked:
>
>>Will the first half of October work for wartime? [...] Suggestions? Discuss.
As long as the War doesn't intrude on NaNoWriMo, I'm good. Hmmm ...
you know, War could be a good warm-up for NaNoWriMo. :)
Cousin Tok
and the Cousinly kitties
tokaara@c....... / AIM Tokaara / ICQ 46441308 / Yahoo messenger tokariel
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:33:23 -0700
From: libratsie@s.......
Subject: Re: war: Forthcoming War
For those who don't know, that National Novel Writing Month which I believe
is in November. I've already warned McLisa about it ;-)
By the way, are there any Ratpackers out there? Does anyone have Johnsie's
addy maybe in their archives (I've changed computers and his addy isn't on
this one).
--Libs
--- On Wed, 8/25/10, Cousin Tok <tokaara@c.......> wrote:
As long as the War doesn't intrude on NaNoWriMo, I'm good.=A0 Hmmm ...
you know, War could be a good warm-up for NaNoWriMo. :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:34:22 -0500
From: Cousin Tok <tokaara@c.......>
Subject: Re: War: Proposed War Rules
At 10:51 AM 7/29/2010, Lisa McDavid typed these words:
>5. This time factions will _NOT_ control their characters. Some
>of the best fun in the early wars came from saves amid chaos. There are
>always dreams, hallucinations and evil twins to explain characters
>being in two places at once. Or good twins, for LaCroix. :)
Would factions still control their headquarters? Cousins controlling
CERK, Vacqueras controlling the church, Knighties controlling the loft, etc?
Cousin Tok
and the Cousinly kitties
tokaara@c....... / AIM Tokaara / ICQ 46441308 / Yahoo messenger tokariel
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:35:26 -0400
From: Will Steeves <goid@i.......>
Subject: Re: WAR: Forthcoming War
Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......> wrote:
> McLisa asked:
>> Will the first half of October work for wartime? [...] Suggestions?
>> Discuss.
> And I totally agree with Libby that this is a great way to remember Susan.
> She played War herself, after all. Played it well, too.
I'm with Greer and Libby. I'm saddened that Susan is no longer with us and
I'd like to suggest that not only should we have the next war to remember
her, we should outright dedicate it to her.
That said, I have not backed down from my belief that the wars need MAJOR
changes, and I will be making some suggestions in the near future. In
short, I think Susan played wars the way they were MEANT to be played (as
in: played, NOT fought). I believe that at some point, we collectively lost
our way, and wars became more about popularity contests, list politics,
personality conflicts, dominance by the popular over the unpopular, and
trying to show how much better you are by getting one over on someone you
don't like, than about simply having fun.
I sincerely hope that we can return the wars to the way they were played,
not fought, in the early days when Susan was instrumental in starting the
tradition.
W.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:00:19 -0500
From: Rebecca Hinson <rebeccahinson@c.......>
Subject: Re: WAR: Forthcoming War
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Steeves" <goid@i.......>
> I'm with Greer and Libby. I'm saddened that Susan is no longer with us and
> I'd like to suggest that not only should we have the next war to remember
> her, we should outright dedicate it to her.
I think this is a fantastic idea and I'd like to second this. The war
should definitely be dedicated to Susan.
> I believe that at some point, we collectively lost
> our way, and wars became more about popularity contests, list politics,
> personality conflicts, dominance by the popular over the unpopular, and
> trying to show how much better you are by getting one over on someone you
> don't like, than about simply having fun.
Will, I don't know what Wars you've been involved in, but the last one is
the only one I've been active in, and I don't know what you're talking
about. I had lots of fun in the last War and I didn't see anything as a
popularity contest, or dominance struggles. I think, perhaps, you may be
biased in that if I'm remembering correctly, there was conflict regarding
you and how *you* behaved, not anyone else. Of course, I could be
misremembering, being that I had a LOT on my plate at the end of War, but if
that's the case, then it sounds like it's a grudge that needs to be let go.
McLisa, I didn't get the email suggesting end of September/beginning of
October or whatever the dates were, but they sound good to me. I'm looking
forward to it again!
:)
~Cousin Becky
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:48:57 -0400
From: L McDavid <mclisa1014@g.......>
Subject: Admin: Urgent -- MCLISA'S NEW ADDRESS
After Monday, Aug. 30th, the address mclisa@m....... will disappear.
As of now, my address is mclisa1014@g........ Please note that this
is _NOT_ exactly the same i.d. as before. They already had a mclisa,
so I added my birthday.
Thanks, and I hope to see you at gmail.
McLisa
listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
mclisa1014@g.......
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:48:32 -0400
From: L McDavid <mclisa1014@g.......>
Subject: War: Factions control headquarters
Cousin Tok asked if the factions retain control of their headquarters,
although not controlling their characters.
Yes, they do. For example, the Cousins still have CERK. They just
don't have the ability to prevent someone from using LC (does anyone
every actually _use_ him ?<eg>), or the responsibility of keeping his
social calendar.
McLisa
listowner and notorious Cousin :)
mclisa1014@g.......
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End of FORKNI-L Digest - 25 Aug 2010 to 26 Aug 2010 (#2010-157)
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