FORKNI-L
Digest - 16 Jul 2006 to 22 Jul 2006 - Special issue (#2006-193)
Sat, 22 Jul 2006
There are 43 messages totalling 1396 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. ADMIN: FORKNI-L Rules
2. Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen? (9)
3. Crusader Stuff: Auction, Caption Contest, and All That
4. Admin: Trying to clarify about the films rule
5. KtK magazine ad and caption contest announcements! (2)
6. KtK magazine ad
7. Cohen in Pirates
8. My FK Moment
9. The Power of Screed (was: My FK Moment)
10. FK Alum (musical)
11. ADMIN: Crossover Rule Change
12. 3rd Season DVD (5)
13. Fic Question (4)
14. Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned (10)
15. Hanging with the Llamas? (3)
16. Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned (Stonetree)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 20:48:51 -0400
From: Don Fasig <argent@c.......>
Subject: ADMIN: FORKNI-L Rules
And Sunday roles around again....
If you need a hand or have any questions please don't hesitate to
contact me, Don Fasig listgardener@p....... or Lisa McDavid
mclisa@m........
For tips on managing your Forever Knight subscriptions please visit
my page at:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7139/fk-lists.htm
List digests are archived at:
https://knightwind1228.tripod.com/forkni.htm
FORKNI-L RULES
1. No flames on list. FLAMERS MAY BE SET NOPOST. THE NOPOST MAY BE
PERMANENT.
2. Please don't quote more than four lines of a previous post in
replying. If you have more than one point to answer, then you may
quote the relevant four lines for that point also.
3. Limit sigs to 6 lines. Your sig starts with the first thing you
write after the text. It includes all the lines under that, even
blank lines.
NOTE: If you have one of those providers that insists on putting an
ad after that, don't worry. The ad doesn't count.
COURTESY NOTE: Please sign all parts at the end with your name and
address. Not all mailers show the original poster of listmail in the
headers.
4. Please don't send to the whole list when you are only talking to
the person who wrote the post you are answering.
5. Advertising on list is on a case by case basis. Please consult the
listowners, Lisa McDavid, mclisa@m....... or Don Fasig,
listgardener@p....... for permission.
6. This list is for the discussion of Forever Knight and related
topics. FK cast and behind the camera people are ok, except that we
don't discuss private lives. Announcements by authorized
spokespersons about events in those lives are ok. PLEASE DON'T TALK
ABOUT PROJECTS WHICH HAVEN'T BEEN OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED OR WRITTEN
ABOUT IN THE MEDIA.
Discussion of non-FK vampires or vampires in general is not ok.
List members' fannish activities are ok, as are sharing personal
events in our lives.
NOTE: Prayer requests must have PRAYER: (including the colon) as the
first word on the subject line.
7. No off-topic posts are allowed without permission from a
listowner. This includes virus warnings.
8. No role-playing on FORKNI-L. This includes using character names
as pseudonyms or posing as a character.
9. Each subscriber is limited to five posts per day on FORKNI-L.
Don Fasig, FK List Gardener
listgardener@p....... ---,-<@
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7139/fk-lists.htm - Subscription Help
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:04:39 EDT
From: Evelyn Duncan <BrandyKitt@a.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
In a message dated 7/16/2006 12:49:07 PM Central Daylight Time,
ithildin@o....... writes:
<<
Most of my stories are crossed with Highlander and
Star Trek, both which have been movies.
>>
I thought Highlander and Star Trek are allowed, along with
Buffy and Angel, as long as we stay with the TV characters.
Evelyn Duncan
brandykitt@a.......
If the kitty ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:31:38 -0700
From: Libby Singleton <libratsie@s.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
As long as they are based on the tv series, Buffy, Angel, Star Trek and
Highlander are allowed under the rules. All those have strong fan fic traditions.
The reason for the rule as I recall is that a lot of movies are based on books,
and the owners of those copyrights tend to protect them - especially books.
That's because the writers are making a living on them. Fan fic is technically
illegal (yes, it IS). We are fortunate that so many copyright owners allow us to
play in their universes as long as no profit is made.
Disney, et al usually only go after public violations of their copyrights and
trademarks meaning that if you knitted a sweater for yourself or your kids on a
pattern you created, they'd probably let that slide. However, if you started
spreading that pattern or the sweaters around, even if for free, they MUST
protect their ownership as there's too many rip offs as it is. They not only own
the right to profit from their "products," but the right to *distribute* them
(meaning for free or for profit).
It isn't just Disney, decades ago, my grandmother had drawn some Peanuts
characters to benefit the church-owned institutional home my severely autistic
uncle lived in at the time. She got a cease and desist order but has told me she
understood why.
Can you just imagine if someone in the FK universe started marketing
Nightcrawler merchandise without permission or a contract? <g> (For some reason,
Screed just popped into my head as a likely guilty party)
Please, everyone, the rules are posted once a week. I've been here for years
but still occasionally re-read them just to make sure I remember everything
correctly.
--Libs
Evelyn Duncan <BrandyKitt@a.......> wrote:
I thought Highlander and Star Trek are allowed, along with
Buffy and Angel, as long as we stay with the TV characters.
Evelyn Duncan
brandykitt@a.......
If the kitty ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 20:12:55 -0700
From: Ith <ithildin@o.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
At 08:04 PM 7/16/2006, Evelyn Duncan wrote:
>I thought Highlander and Star Trek are allowed, along with
>Buffy and Angel, as long as we stay with the TV characters.
Except that I refer to specific events in Star Trek movies and have used
Connor MacLeod as a character, so if the rules are no movies whatsoever,
then Star Trek is pretty much banned and a great deal of Highlander as
well. Especially as Highlander had moved back to movies, with a new one due
soon.
Ith *Ithildin@o.......* Denise
* Make Tea, Not Love ~Monty Python *
* Vermilion Sea: http://ithidrial.livejournal.com/ *
* HOUSE M.D. http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/DrHouse/ *
* The Darkwood http://ondragonswing.com/tales/ *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:38:32 -0500
From: Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@c.......>
Subject: Crusader Stuff: Auction, Caption Contest, and All That
SUMMER AUCTION
I'm pleased to announce that the Kickstart the Knight Committee has
purchased the full-page ad that fans requested. It will appear in
SciFi Magazine (sorry, I'm not sure which issue). You can preview the
ad here:
http://www.nancykam.com/crusader/2006-scifi-ad.html
CAPTION CONTEST
We received 26 entries to the caption contest, and after the voting
was tallied, Caption 15 was determined to be the winner.
Congratulations to Cousin Mary for her winning entry! You can view the
winning entry on the Crusader home page:
http://www.nancykam.com/crusader
Thanks to everyone who entered a caption and who voted for the
entries!
Cheers,
Nancy Kaminski
KtK Webmaster/Caption and Auction Wrangler
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:21:33 -0700
From: Ith <ithildin@o.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
At 09:31 PM 7/16/2006, Libby Singleton wrote:
>As long as they are based on the tv series, Buffy, Angel, Star Trek and
>Highlander are allowed under the rules. All those have strong fan fic
>traditions.
But Star Trek and Highlander have movies, so if the rules are no movies,
then it's no movies period. Buffy and Angel have never been movies, so I
would assume those crossovers are allowed.
> Disney, et al usually only go after public violations of their
> copyrights and trademarks meaning that if you knitted a sweater for
> yourself or your kids on a pattern you created, they'd probably let that
> slide. However, if you started spreading that pattern or the sweaters
> around, even if for free, they MUST protect their ownership as there's
> too many rip offs as it is. They not only own the right to profit from
> their "products," but the right to *distribute* them (meaning for free or
> for profit).
Considering the plethora of Pirates of the Caribbean fic out there, they
don't seem too concerned. But that's really beside the point if FKfic is a
no movie zone.
> Please, everyone, the rules are posted once a week. I've been here for
> years but still occasionally re-read them just to make sure I remember
> everything correctly.
I reread them as well, but as I stated earlier, I didn't understand that
there was a ban on movie crossovers. I thought visual media was allowed and
print was not. And I apologized, and I have stated I won't post my fic to
Fkfic any longer. I'm not sure what else I can do. I've been on these lists
for a decade and change and didn't realize that the fic I was posting was
against the rules. If something is a movie, like Star Trek and Highlander,
than I'm not willing to interpret the rule against movie crossovers in my
favour. I'd rather err on the side of caution and no longer use the Forever
Knight fiction list as a venue for posting my fic. Because if I've been
wrong for this long, any future decision to post here would most likely be
wrong as well.
Yet again, I apologize for screwing up.
Ith *Ithildin@o.......* Denise
* Make Tea, Not Love ~Monty Python *
* Vermilion Sea: http://ithidrial.livejournal.com/ *
* HOUSE M.D. http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/DrHouse/ *
* The Darkwood http://ondragonswing.com/tales/ *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 02:09:08 EDT
From: Melissa McFarlin <Meliss9900@a.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
In a message dated 7/17/2006 12:21:58 AM Central Standard Time,
ithildin@o....... writes:
But Star Trek and Highlander have movies, so if the rules are no movies,
then it's no movies period. Buffy and Angel have never been movies, so I
would assume those crossovers are allowed.
Delurking for just a moment to point out that Buffy was indeed a movie before
it ever became a T.V. Series. It came out in 1992 and starred Kristy
Swanson, Paul Ruebens, Rutger Hauer and Donald Sutherland"
Melissa
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:42:18 -0700
From: Megan Hull <mistrydder@y......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
Actually, if you'll cast your mind WAY back, Buffy *started* with a movie. So
did Forever Knight, for that matter. So where does that leave us?
-Megan
Melissa McFarlin <Meliss9900@a.......> wrote:
Buffy and Angel have never been movies,
"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:14:30 +0800
From: eruve erundun <eruveerundun@y......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
Uh, at the mercy of Sony?
I mean, fan fic is illegal. Our activities are presently tolerated by the
copyright owner but if perchance they change their minds, then we're out of luck,
really.
Ell
Megan Hull <mistrydder@y......> wrote:
Actually, if you'll cast your mind WAY back, Buffy *started* with a movie. So
did Forever Knight, for that matter. So where does that leave us?
-Megan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 04:36:41 -0700
From: Libby Singleton <libratsie@s.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
Point is, this has been a rule for a VERY VERY long time!!!
IMHO, all this means is that very few people bother to read the rules which
Don and McLisa post weekly.
If you have a problem with the rules, McLisa or Don should be contacted
privately. There has already been one instance where these lists were nearly sued
and that's why no real people are allowed to be used in stories. As McLisa has
repeatedly said, we are not an educational list yet are hosted by an educational
listserv out of the kindness of their hearts. They don't want any trouble.
--Libs
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:47:01 -0400
From: Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Admin: Trying to clarify about the films rule
Let's see if I can make this any easier. What we're trying to do is to make
Fkfic-l less vulnerable to legal action from copyright holders.
As someone stated, yes, the starting point was the fact that Interview With The
Vampire was aggressively protected by the studio. Ann Rice is very protective
of her characters as well. That's way straight-out crossovers with movies
aren't allowed on Fkfic-l.
TV series with related movies are a different story. I've allowed crossovers
with Lois and Clark even though Superman and Lois and their universe originated
as comic books and have been filmed. I figured there was enough difference for
the series to be a separate thing. Star Trek has its movies, but it began with
a television show. Buffy in the series is considerably different from the
movie. So is the television version of Highlander. Once a series is a series, it
doesn't make a difference whether it has movies based on it later. It's still
t.v. and eligible for crossovers.
Ith, please don't stop posting to Fkfic-l. Please, don't anybody stop posting.
If you want to check with me or Don in case a crossover is in the gray area
between movies and tv, we'll be happy to help. Nobody's going to get into trouble
with us for making a mistake about the rules. That is also true about
interpretations which we may later disagree with. We're here to have fun with a show we
love.
Do we have any lawyers or movie professionals who'd like to talk to me offlist
about this? Or any of us who want to? Maybe the policy is too restrictive and
something can be worked out. My address is mclisa@m........
Thanks!
McLisa
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:42:58 EDT
From: SField8067@a.......
Subject: KtK magazine ad and caption contest announcements!
Posted with permission
SUMMER AUCTION
I'm pleased to announce that the Kickstart the Knight Committee has
purchased the full-page ad that fans requested. It will appear in
SciFi Magazine. You can preview the
ad here:
http://www.nancykam.com/crusader/2006-scifi-ad.html
The issue has an on sale date of Aug 15th. Subscribers generally get their
issues 5-7 days prior to that date. It's the Oct '06 issue, the Sci Fi Fall
Preview issue. People can call 800-219-1187 if they want to order the issue if
not available in your bookstores. Borders/Barnes and noble, etc, usually have
them.
............................................................................
.........................................
CAPTION CONTEST
We received 26 entries to the caption contest, and after the voting
was tallied, Caption 15 was determined to be the winner.
Congratulations to Cousin Mary for her winning entry! You can view the
winning entry on the Crusader home page:
http://www.nancykam.com/crusader
Thanks to everyone who entered a caption and who voted for the
entries!
Cheers,
Nancy Kaminski
and Susan Ellen Field
KtK
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:41:53 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
Subject: Re: KtK magazine ad
Thank you for all your hard work!
--- SField8067@a....... wrote:
> Posted with permission
>
> SUMMER AUCTION
> I'm pleased to announce that the Kickstart the
> Knight Committee has
> purchased the full-page ad that fans requested. It
> will appear in
> SciFi Magazine. You can preview the
> ad here:
>
> http://www.nancykam.com/crusader/2006-scifi-ad.html
>
>
"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress
See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/members/landinn/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:46:30 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
Subject: Re: Cohen in Pirates
According to the IMDB, she was in the original, not
"Dead Man's Chest".
http://imdb.com/name/nm0644916/
--- knghtwtch@a....... wrote:
>
> HI Gang,
>
> If you stayed for the cridits for Pirates of the
> Carribean, you would see our own Amada Cohen [I
> wouldn't even try to spell her name} listed as
> "Cannibal Woman."
"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress
See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/members/landinn/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:54:20 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
Subject: My FK Moment
Yesterday I was eating lunch, and I swear to you, our
waiter looked just like a younger version of Greg
Kramer!
Of course it was daylight...and there were no rats
about that I could see...
"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress
See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/members/landinn/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:54:23 EDT
From: Melissa McFarlin <Meliss9900@a.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: No films xover, was Re: Amanda Cohen?
In a message dated 7/17/2006 2:42:42 AM Central Standard Time,
mistrydder@y...... writes:
Actually, if you'll cast your mind WAY back, Buffy *started* with a movie.
So did Forever Knight, for that matter. So where does that leave us?
-Megan
Melissa McFarlin <Meliss9900@a.......> wrote:
Buffy and Angel have never been movies,
Ok just to clear up. I never said that Buffy wasn't a movie that was the
original poster of the thread.
Melissa . .(ok back to lurkingdom)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:56:13 -0400
From: Don Fasig <argent@c.......>
Subject: The Power of Screed (was: My FK Moment)
On 17 Jul 2006 at 10:54, Kristen Fife wrote:
> Of course it was daylight...and there were no rats
> about that I could see...
I've been watching my tapes of season three (and dreaming of having
them on DVD). The last one I watched was "Fever", and I couldn't help
but marvel at the lasting impact Screeds character made for only
being in a handful of episodes.
- Don
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:42:35 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
Subject: FK Alum (musical)
Molly Johnson will be in NYC performing. If you
haven't followed her, she is a FABULOUS jazz singer.
She performs a lot in Toronto and France. I love her
music and highly recommend seeing her if you have the
chance and like jazz.
mollyjohnson.com has streaming media you can listen
to.
>
>Molly Johnson & Band
>New York Showcase:
>
>Monday August 14, 2006
>Joe's Pub
>425 Lafeyette St.
>New York, NY USA
>Tickets: $15 Show: 9:30pm
>http://www.joespub.com
"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress
See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/members/landinn/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:15:10 -0400
From: Elizabeth Gaughen <eagaughen@p.......>
Subject: Re: KtK magazine ad and caption contest announcements!
That's a great ad Really hope all your efforts are rewarded with a season 3
set.
Lisa G
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 21:05:51 -0400
From: Don Fasig <argent@c.......>
Subject: ADMIN: Crossover Rule Change
After some consideration, Lisa and I have decided a modification of
the crossover rule is in order. Henceforth the rule will read as
follows....
3. FK may be crossed only with movies and television shows. It cannot
be crossed with other shows which are based on print-published media
including comics. (Books and comics based on the movies or TV shows
do not normally cause crossing to be prohibited.) Disney characters
and movies are never acceptable for crossing. Crossovers must have
the subject header XOVER: at the beginning of the subject line. It
has to be spelled that way because the listserv doesn't recognize
'crossover," and it MUST have the colon. Crossovers must state which
show FK is being crossed with.
Don Fasig, FK List Gardener
listgardener@p....... ---,-<@
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7139/fk-lists.htm - Subscription Help
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 01:32:43 EDT
From: KnghtWtch@a.......
Subject: Re: 3rd Season DVD
HI All,
I received on one of my other lists that the DVD is to be released on Oct 3.
The list owners said it was on the Barnes & Noble web site for pre-orders.
Has anyone else got wind of this?
KnightWitch ;-]=
CaddyWhacker, first and foremost. AND NOW I CAN PROVE IT!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 01:54:51 -0500
From: Kristin <kris1228@e.......>
Subject: Re: 3rd Season DVD
Oct. 3rd is possible, but not for sure yet. I've been speaking with the DVD
manager from Sony for about a month now (regarding my music videos as
special features) and a specific date hasn't been set yet (though he did
mention October was a maybe). It *is* coming soon though. Stay tuned!
Kristin
http://www.avenuepotter.com/~kristin/Forever_Knight/
http://www.avenuepotter.com/~kristin/Christian_Bale/
>>I received on one of my other lists that the DVD is to be released on Oct
3. The list owners said it was on the Barnes & Noble web site for pre-orders.
Has anyone else got wind of this?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 06:48:23 -0400
From: Judith Cataldo <judycat@e.......>
Subject: Fic Question
Hi all,
Someone on another list is writing a FK story and was wondering if anyone
could help with some info. She wants to know the eye color of the FK
characters. I think mainly Nick, Janette and Lacroix but please add in the
rest of the regulars. I figured if anyone knew it was this gang!
Judy C in MA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:49:41 -0400
From: Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Re: Fic Question
> She wants to know the eye color of the FK
>characters. I think mainly Nick, Janette and Lacroix but please add in the
>rest of the regulars. I figured if anyone knew it was this gang!
Blue in all three cases, plus Catherine Disher as Natalie. I asked Nigel and
Deborah at a con because CD's eyes tended to look brown on my set.
McLisa
mclisa@m.......
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:50:07 +0800
From: eruve erundun <eruveerundun@y......>
Subject: Re: 3rd Season DVD
Oh yeah...Everybody now...(to the tune of "My Two Front Teeth")...
All I want for Christmas is the 3rd season DVD...
Ducks back to lurking,
Ell
Kristin <kris1228@e.......> wrote:
<snip> a specific date hasn't been set yet (though he did
mention October was a maybe). It *is* coming soon though. Stay tuned!
Kristin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:45:13 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
Subject: Re: 3rd Season DVD
I went to Barnes and Noble and tried typing in a
variety of search strings and it didn't come up :(
--- KnghtWtch@a....... wrote:
> HI All,
>
> The list owners said it was on the Barnes & Noble
> web site for pre-orders.
>
"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress
See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/members/landinn/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:05:31 -0500
From: Kristin <kris1228@e.......>
Subject: Re: 3rd Season DVD
I spoke with my contact at Sony again today and he said there has not been a
date confirmed from the marketing department yet. I'll let you know when I
have more news to share.
Kristin
http://www.avenuepotter.com/~kristin/Forever_Knight/
http://www.avenuepotter.com/~kristin/Christian_Bale/
>>>I went to Barnes and Noble and tried typing in a
variety of search strings and it didn't come up :(
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 06:53:15 -0400
From: Cheryl <fknight420@c.......>
Subject: Re: Fic Question
LaCroix, Nick, Tracey both have blue
Schanke, Janette, Cohen, Vachon, Screed (maybe) and Stonetree have brown
Natalie has hazel almost green
My best guess
Cheryl / fknight420@c.......
'Angus Grady; The Beginning--available in
bookstores nationwide.
Don't trade a treasure
for an empty box.
ForeverKnight.5u.com
AngusGrady.50megs.com
BradleyFarley.50megs.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:54:19 -0400
From: Deborah Hymon <debh@e.......>
Subject: Re: Fic Question
This question has already been answered.
Nick, Janette, LaCroix, and Nat all have blue eyes; different shades, but
blue. Someone said Nat (Catherine Disher) has brown--not true!
Deborah
DeborahAHymon.com
on 7/20/06 6:48 AM, Judith Cataldo at judycat@e....... wrote:
> She wants to know the eye color of the FK
> characters. I think mainly Nick, Janette and Lacroix but please add in the
> rest of the regulars.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 04:45:36 -0400
From: gwatson2 <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
One of the things that has alwasy puzzled me about "For I Have Sinned" is
the question of whether Fr Rochefort did (or did not) know the identity of
the murderer.
On the one hand, he was in the confessional when the guy went in to talk to
him; and it is doubtful if he could make out the man's features through the
screen. And, when he ran out after the guy left, he'd already gone. So
clearly, *if* Rochefort knew who the murderer was, it could only be because
he recognised his voice. And, when Nick and Stonetree interrogate
Rochefort, Nick asks him directly if he knows who the murderer is, and the
priest says he does not.
Against this, we have the fact that Nick then tells him not to lie: "It
doesn't become you." And, of course, Nick can hear Rochefort's heartbeat,
so he may be acting as a lie detector here. (Mind you, we have known Nick
absolutely sure someone is telling the truth when they actually aren't; he's
not infallible.)
Yes, Rochefort was going to "Loose Lips" to warn Magda--either because he
guessed from what the murderer says that she was the next target, or (maybe)
because he was warning all the potential targets he could think of and
coincidentally happened to get to Magda at the same time as the murderer.
(It is, in any case, a coincidence that he got there at the same time as the
murderer.)
But his attempt to warn Magda merely means that he guessed she was (or
might be) the next victim. It doesn't tell us whether he knew who the
murderer was.
So maybe Rochefort is, in fact, telling the truth when he says he doesn't
know who the murderer is. In that case, the whole bit about his cleaving to
the rules of his religion is really a moot issue: if he doesn't know, then
he couldn't help anyway.
But, then again, he is arguing a point of principle. Whether it has a
practical application may seem irrelevant againt the importance of getting
across to Nick the fact that--even if he could help--he *would* not help.
When I wrote a sequel to "For I Have Sinned", with Rochefort having a
different serial killer making his confession to him, I made sure that it
was clear that he *did* know the killer (the one in the sequel, I mean)
because he recognised his voice through having counselled him. I wanted the
issues to be crystal clear.
But what about in "For I Have Sinned"? Thoughts?
Greer Watson
gwatson2@r.......
http://ca.geocities.com/gwatson2@rogers.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 05:14:01 -0400
From: gwatson2 <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
Does anyone out there remember whether we were ever told what Stonetree's
religious beliefs were?
Watching the interrogation scene in this episode, I thought at first that
his objection to Nick's badgering Rochefort was just a "Good Cop/Bad Cop"
routine. When he ordered Nick out of the room, it could have been a ploy to
get Rochefort's confidence in the hope that he'd say something.
However, Stonetree was quite sharp with Nick *outside* the room
later--and this was when they were alone, with Rochefort out of hearing
distance. That suggests that when he objected to Nick's approach to
questioning Rochefort was genuine: he really did feel that Nick was going
too far.
But why? Rochefort had been right there on the scene of a murder attempt.
One would assume that he'd be considered a suspect.
If not a suspect, then he could well have evidence that might identify a
murderer: Nick certainly believes that. And remember; the police have no
reason to believe that, having been foiled in murdering Magda, the killer
might not try to kill the *next* person on his list. I mean he obviously
does have a list: she's Number Three. They have no idea how long that list
might be, or who else is on it besides Magda. (Actually, the guy went after
Magda again; but they'd no reason to believe that that would necessarily be
the case.)
Getting from Rochefort all the information he can give--that would seem
to be a very high priority. It isn't just a question of catching someone
who has killed in the past (e.g. a wife-killer, to use Rochefort's example),
but of stopping someone from killing in the future. Lives are at stake.
Yet Stonetree wants to go soft on Rochefort in the interrogation--and not
just as a ploy.
It isn't just politeness: the way he talks to the priest is
more...mmm...deferential, almost.
Of course, afterwards, he does put his arm around the guy, which is
hardly *deferential*--but, then again, it does seem kind of protective.
But, however valid Rochefort's reasons, why would Stonetree feel protective
of him (of his feelings, especially)?
I wondered whether he was perhaps influenced by his own religious beliefs to
see the priest as an authority figure to be approached with deference, even
in cicrcumstances such as these. More--someone who should be treated as
"outside" the nastiness of police cases, an innocent to be protected from
the unpleasant details (kind of like a maiden aunt, or something like that):
there are things they can't be expected to understand. Maybe that he felt
protective because he felt that Nick had hurt Rochefort unreasonably.
What are other people's thoughts on Stonetree's behaviour in this episode?
Greer
gwatson2@r.......
http://ca.geocities.com/gwatson2@rogers.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 09:41:02 -0400
From: "Phillips, Tim" <Tim.Phillips@s.......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
>Does anyone out there remember whether we were ever told what
Stonetree's religious beliefs were?
I do not believe it is ever stated.
I have always liked to think that Stonetree adhered to a tribal
belief system. Just because it brings something uniquely distinctive to
the character.
>That suggests that <Stonetree> really did feel that Nick was going too
far <in his interrogation of Rochefort>
> But why? Rochefort had been right there on the scene of a murder
> attempt.
I get the feeling that Stonetree simply feels Nick is getting
unprofessional in how he is berating Rochefort and is letting his
emotions get in the way of good police work. Yes, Rochefort's story is
odd... but Stonetree is definitely someone who will have to pick up the
pieces from a complaint about unprofessional behavior or bad press about
police "attacking" a Roman Catholic priest who was "simply trying to
help a member of his parish". The way Stonetree snaps at Nick and slaps
the top of his desk with such disgust makes me think he's warned Nick
either earlier during this interrogation or at past ones to watch how he
is behaving...and is upset that Nick is still persisting in his
attitude.
I think Stonetree's different approach could simply be that he thinks
it will work while yelling at Rochefort is getting them no where.
Stonetree is a Captain, remember. He has probably been a police officer
longer than Nick. Although politics is doubtlessly involved, I'd like
to think a total incompetent wouldn't be picked from the available
detectives to be the Captain. Stonetree - in theory at least - is thus
supposed to be pretty good himself at working with suspects and solving
cases. Definitely, he can't fly, hear through walls, lift cars
one-handed and walk into gunfire unharmed... so his people skills are
probably better than Nick's because they are more of what he has to rely
upon in order to close a case.
Tim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:11:00 -0400
From: "Phillips, Tim" <Tim.Phillips@s.......>
Subject: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
1) I love the interplay between Nick and Janette in the first scene in
the Raven. When he playbites the back of her hand was a nice touch of
how close the lack of control is for nick and his affection for her.
2) Schanke's first exposure to the Raven is a riot. From "I was about
to score!!" to "You would become a permanent member of the night shift,
Mr. Schanke" to "husbands who send wives flowers for no reason, usually
have a reason" ... it was fun watching the character start to fill in as
more than the motor-mouthed comic relief he was setup as in the
premiere.
3) I remember hearing somewhere that the hero Caddy used in the show had
its bad days. I wonder if the "great car" Schanke spits out after one
prolonged cranking session to get it started was scripted or an ad-lib
that they chose to keep.
4) anyone got an idea why the crucifixion pose of the woman killed in
the parking lot bugs Nick so much? Are FK vampires that afraid of the
symbol of the cross???? or is it the symbol of Christ himself???
5) how does Nick always get such a primo parking spot infront of the
Coroner's building??
6) interesting that Joan knows who Nick is. She calls him by name and
knows who and what exactly he is. Nick apparently wasn't try to conceal
his identity at that time? Seems a little odd for a vampire to be so
openly recognized.
7) anyone else catch the blooper when we first meet the old priest as
the Easter Pagent is being setup? Watch the very top of the screen as
he is gathering up wood and you can see a boom-mike in the frame for a
second.
8) Michael McMannus as Pierre Rochfore. If you like this actor, you've
simply got to get copies of LEXX....more so in Seasons 3 and 4 when
Nigel joined the cast with a wonderful turn as Prince.
9) I like how Janette is so physically strong where she saves Schanke
from Alma. Schanke is in visible pain from her grip on his arm. Nice
to see that someone remembered that this delicate looking woman is
supposed to be inhumanly strong...and have no qualms about using that
power on a mere mortal.
10) the scene where Natalie handles Joan's cross is nice. The actress
really sold the idea that she was handling more than two drift-wood
sticks and a chunk of rawhide that someone in props pulled out of a
draw.
11) kinda bright isn't it when Nick arrives at the church at 6:00. I'm
pretty sure he's literally smoked other times when it was this bright.
Probaly quibbling too much... they probably had trouble getting cameras
set that morning or the street cordened off.
12) the scene where Nick is in the confessional and pretends he is
asleep when a woman enters was a nice humerous touch....and the whole
Irish accented priest with Schanke was worth the price of admission.
13) interesting that this episode is #3. It really can be viewed as
the complete explaination behind much of Nick's actions over the all 3
seasons. Very, very early in the series someone decided to show much
more explicitly the tension between good/evil, vampire/human,
believer/lost soul that is such a part of the character of Nick Knight.
14) why does nick give natalie the cross he got from Magda?? He's had
Joan's cross for centuries and worked around its "power"...why would
Nick casually give away something he was given with considerable emotion
only a minute earlier????
15) I love the "sun's coming up" line at the very end and how striken
Natalie looks as Nick pulls his shades on and departs
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:11:00 -0400
From: "Phillips, Tim" <Tim.Phillips@s.......>
Subject: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
1) I love the interplay between Nick and Janette in the first scene in
the Raven. When he playbites the back of her hand was a nice touch of
how close the lack of control is for nick and his affection for her.
2) Schanke's first exposure to the Raven is a riot. From "I was about
to score!!" to "You would become a permanent member of the night shift,
Mr. Schanke" to "husbands who send wives flowers for no reason, usually
have a reason" ... it was fun watching the character start to fill in as
more than the motor-mouthed comic relief he was setup as in the
premiere.
3) I remember hearing somewhere that the hero Caddy used in the show had
its bad days. I wonder if the "great car" Schanke spits out after one
prolonged cranking session to get it started was scripted or an ad-lib
that they chose to keep.
4) anyone got an idea why the crucifixion pose of the woman killed in
the parking lot bugs Nick so much? Are FK vampires that afraid of the
symbol of the cross???? or is it the symbol of Christ himself???
5) how does Nick always get such a primo parking spot infront of the
Coroner's building??
6) interesting that Joan knows who Nick is. She calls him by name and
knows who and what exactly he is. Nick apparently wasn't try to conceal
his identity at that time? Seems a little odd for a vampire to be so
openly recognized.
7) anyone else catch the blooper when we first meet the old priest as
the Easter Pagent is being setup? Watch the very top of the screen as
he is gathering up wood and you can see a boom-mike in the frame for a
second.
8) Michael McMannus as Pierre Rochfore. If you like this actor, you've
simply got to get copies of LEXX....more so in Seasons 3 and 4 when
Nigel joined the cast with a wonderful turn as Prince.
9) I like how Janette is so physically strong where she saves Schanke
from Alma. Schanke is in visible pain from her grip on his arm. Nice
to see that someone remembered that this delicate looking woman is
supposed to be inhumanly strong...and have no qualms about using that
power on a mere mortal.
10) the scene where Natalie handles Joan's cross is nice. The actress
really sold the idea that she was handling more than two drift-wood
sticks and a chunk of rawhide that someone in props pulled out of a
draw.
11) kinda bright isn't it when Nick arrives at the church at 6:00. I'm
pretty sure he's literally smoked other times when it was this bright.
Probaly quibbling too much... they probably had trouble getting cameras
set that morning or the street cordened off.
12) the scene where Nick is in the confessional and pretends he is
asleep when a woman enters was a nice humerous touch....and the whole
Irish accented priest with Schanke was worth the price of admission.
13) interesting that this episode is #3. It really can be viewed as
the complete explaination behind much of Nick's actions over the all 3
seasons. Very, very early in the series someone decided to show much
more explicitly the tension between good/evil, vampire/human,
believer/lost soul that is such a part of the character of Nick Knight.
14) why does nick give natalie the cross he got from Magda?? He's had
Joan's cross for centuries and worked around its "power"...why would
Nick casually give away something he was given with considerable emotion
only a minute earlier????
15) I love the "sun's coming up" line at the very end and how striken
Natalie looks as Nick pulls his shades on and departs
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:11:00 -0400
From: "Phillips, Tim" <Tim.Phillips@s.......>
Subject: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
1) I love the interplay between Nick and Janette in the first scene in
the Raven. When he playbites the back of her hand was a nice touch of
how close the lack of control is for nick and his affection for her.
2) Schanke's first exposure to the Raven is a riot. From "I was about
to score!!" to "You would become a permanent member of the night shift,
Mr. Schanke" to "husbands who send wives flowers for no reason, usually
have a reason" ... it was fun watching the character start to fill in as
more than the motor-mouthed comic relief he was setup as in the
premiere.
3) I remember hearing somewhere that the hero Caddy used in the show had
its bad days. I wonder if the "great car" Schanke spits out after one
prolonged cranking session to get it started was scripted or an ad-lib
that they chose to keep.
4) anyone got an idea why the crucifixion pose of the woman killed in
the parking lot bugs Nick so much? Are FK vampires that afraid of the
symbol of the cross???? or is it the symbol of Christ himself???
5) how does Nick always get such a primo parking spot infront of the
Coroner's building??
6) interesting that Joan knows who Nick is. She calls him by name and
knows who and what exactly he is. Nick apparently wasn't try to conceal
his identity at that time? Seems a little odd for a vampire to be so
openly recognized.
7) anyone else catch the blooper when we first meet the old priest as
the Easter Pagent is being setup? Watch the very top of the screen as
he is gathering up wood and you can see a boom-mike in the frame for a
second.
8) Michael McMannus as Pierre Rochfore. If you like this actor, you've
simply got to get copies of LEXX....more so in Seasons 3 and 4 when
Nigel joined the cast with a wonderful turn as Prince.
9) I like how Janette is so physically strong where she saves Schanke
from Alma. Schanke is in visible pain from her grip on his arm. Nice
to see that someone remembered that this delicate looking woman is
supposed to be inhumanly strong...and have no qualms about using that
power on a mere mortal.
10) the scene where Natalie handles Joan's cross is nice. The actress
really sold the idea that she was handling more than two drift-wood
sticks and a chunk of rawhide that someone in props pulled out of a
draw.
11) kinda bright isn't it when Nick arrives at the church at 6:00. I'm
pretty sure he's literally smoked other times when it was this bright.
Probaly quibbling too much... they probably had trouble getting cameras
set that morning or the street cordened off.
12) the scene where Nick is in the confessional and pretends he is
asleep when a woman enters was a nice humerous touch....and the whole
Irish accented priest with Schanke was worth the price of admission.
13) interesting that this episode is #3. It really can be viewed as
the complete explaination behind much of Nick's actions over the all 3
seasons. Very, very early in the series someone decided to show much
more explicitly the tension between good/evil, vampire/human,
believer/lost soul that is such a part of the character of Nick Knight.
14) why does nick give natalie the cross he got from Magda?? He's had
Joan's cross for centuries and worked around its "power"...why would
Nick casually give away something he was given with considerable emotion
only a minute earlier????
15) I love the "sun's coming up" line at the very end and how striken
Natalie looks as Nick pulls his shades on and departs
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:25:38 -0500
From: katrinka <katrinka@f.......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
Several years ago, in Oklahoma city, WKY had a radio show for Native
Americans. They had the actor on the show about once a month-a big thing
since it was only on Sundays! He stated that he had been told that Stonetree
held First Nation tribal beliefs.
Of course, the channels been bought three times since then. I've really
missed that show, really liked listening to him!
Katrinka
Knightie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:20:32 -0400
From: Portia <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Hanging with the Llamas?
Hey all, I haven't received a digest from this list since 16 July! Are you
all off hanging with the llamas, or is there some swinging party going on at the
Raven to which I haven't been invited? Are the llamas all hanging at the
Raven??
In honor of llamas (and Bonnie), I offer this:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
Portia, all aloooone! :'o(
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:25:38 -0500
From: katrinka <katrinka@f.......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
Several years ago, in Oklahoma city, WKY had a radio show for Native
Americans. They had the actor on the show about once a month-a big thing
since it was only on Sundays! He stated that he had been told that Stonetree
held First Nation tribal beliefs.
Of course, the channels been bought three times since then. I've really
missed that show, really liked listening to him!
Katrinka
Knightie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:20:32 -0400
From: Portia <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Hanging with the Llamas?
Hey all, I haven't received a digest from this list since 16 July! Are you
all off hanging with the llamas, or is there some swinging party going on at the
Raven to which I haven't been invited? Are the llamas all hanging at the
Raven??
In honor of llamas (and Bonnie), I offer this:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
Portia, all aloooone! :'o(
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:25:38 -0500
From: katrinka <katrinka@f.......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
Several years ago, in Oklahoma city, WKY had a radio show for Native
Americans. They had the actor on the show about once a month-a big thing
since it was only on Sundays! He stated that he had been told that Stonetree
held First Nation tribal beliefs.
Of course, the channels been bought three times since then. I've really
missed that show, really liked listening to him!
Katrinka
Knightie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 16:15:08 -0400
From: Mary Combs <combsm@e.......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned
Tim wrote:
> Stonetree is a Captain, remember. He has probably been a
> police officer longer than Nick.
Well, no, actually, he hasn't. Nick's been a police officer since the 1960s.
He's a grizzled veteran compared to Stonetree (who's 40ish), much less
Schanke (which is part of the tension between them).<gr>
But experience isn't everything, and I think that what Tim goes on to say
about Stonetree having skills that are superior to Nick's is absolutely
right on point.
Mary
Mary Combs N&Npack
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:40:56 -0700
From: Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y......>
Subject: Re: Episode discussion: For I Have Sinned (Stonetree)
Being that fully one third of the population in
Ontario is Roman Catholic (2001 Census lists 34.7%),
it is not outside the realm of believability that
Stonetree was showing deference to Fr. Rochefort
simply because he is a priest. And, honestly, it
seemed pretty obvious that Nick's behavior stems from
some personal issues dealing with the Catholic church.
There is also the possiblity that he WAS trying to put
Fr. Rochefort at ease in case he does turn out to be
the killer, but I don't think that was it.
Regarding Stonetree's beliefs, my guess is that he was
very open-minded and respectful of any spiritual
beliefs, regardless of his own personal system.
--- gwatson2 <gwatson2@r.......> wrote:
>
> What are other people's thoughts on Stonetree's
> behaviour in this episode?
>
"The price for this gift is the darkness of the night, and the blood of
humanity to sustain you." -THICKER THAN WATER, Kristen Fife in progress
See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/members/landinn/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:20:32 -0400
From: Portia <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Hanging with the Llamas?
Hey all, I haven't received a digest from this list since 16 July! Are you
all off hanging with the llamas, or is there some swinging party going on at the
Raven to which I haven't been invited? Are the llamas all hanging at the
Raven??
In honor of llamas (and Bonnie), I offer this:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
Portia, all aloooone! :'o(
------------------------------
End of FORKNI-L Digest - 16 Jul 2006 to 22 Jul 2006 - Special issue (#2006-193)
*******************************************************************************
Knight graphics and parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/
