Home Page How I Found Forever Knight Forkni-L Archives Main Page Forkni-L Earlier Years
My Forever Knight Fanfiction Links E-Mail Me

FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 30 Apr 2005 to 1 May 2005 (#2005-116)

Sun, 1 May 2005

There are 10 messages totalling 316 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Nick & Nat's relationship (2)
  2. Who Wrote That?
  3. Nick & Nat's Relationship
  4. Second Season FK DVDs
  5. Nick & Nat's Relationship/Also: Ethics and Redemption (5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 03:26:57 +0000
From:    Amy Hull <amilynh@c.......>
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's relationship

I don't think there was anything work-related prohibiting them to have a
relationship.  I always felt that the, "We can't get too close" was from THEM--the
fultile attempst for Natalie to remain the "objective scientist" for Nick to
maintain the illusion that he *wasn't* in love with her and thus wasn't as much of
a danger to her.

And so, as part of the denial to themselves, they persisted in it to others.
Methinks they do protest too much...  And it's not like there was ANYONE who
didn't know there was attraction...

Amy

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 04:00:30 GMT
From:    KC Smith <tigrlady2u@j.......>
Subject: Re: Who Wrote That?

 I'm thinking maybe I got the title wrong, though I could swear it was 'Monkey
in the Middle', of the story I'm looking for.
 It was the one where Natalie was accused of being a necrophiliac (sp?). The
person that accused her was actually the necro, and she was trying to get rid of
Nat so she could have Nick. Sound familiar to anyone? Any help is appreciated.


KC Smith
tigrlady2u@j.......
Nick/Natpacker with dark tendencies.
"I've never met a chocolate I didn't like."
http://kc.descentintodarkness.net


------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:05:33 -0500
From:    Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's relationship

>Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:18:51 -0500  wirickml@v.......
>
>Besides the episode, Dance by the Light of the Moon, where Nick states
>that they are just friends, is there any other show that says they had to
>keep their relationship quiet?

The problem is trying to have a relationship at all.  Nick has a tendency
to kill anyone he tries to have a physical relationship with, unless he
chooses to bring them across.





Bring 'em back alive!
Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
Cousin of the Knight ~ N&NPacker
CotK Site -- http://lavender.fortunecity.com/evildead/879/

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 10:25:44 -0500
From:    wirickml@v.......
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's Relationship

>The problem is trying to have a relationship at all.  Nick has a tendency to
kill anyone he tries to have a physical relationship with, unless he chooses to
bring them across. <

Let me see if I can clarify my question. I think what I was trying to ask, and
none to clearly on my part, was that everyone else around them thought Nick was
an ordinary guy with a weird allergy.
Why would they not acknowledge they fact that they were attracted to each
other? In fan fiction, this seems to be a major point in story lines, to deny
that they are attracted to each other. Of course, this makes for great tension
between them.
Was there any other episode where they really denied the fact they liked each
other or made it a point to deny that fact?


Why the big secret, other than he was a vampire, and couldn't have a normal
relationship with Nat. To co-workers he was as human as they were and it made no
sense.

Do I make any more sense than my question?

Mary Lynn

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 09:11:38 -0700
From:    "Lynn L. Sowinski" <lls761@s.......>
Subject: Second Season FK DVDs

Hi All!

If anyone is interested, I just saw the Seaons 2 FK dvds at Best Buy for
$47.00.  Not a bad price at all, and obviously no shipping and handling.

Take care!

Lynn


If Dogs Don't Go To Heaven, When I Die, I Want To Go Where They Went.

Heart Attacks - God's Revenge For Eating His Animal Friends.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 11:30:42 -0700
From:    Michele C <mobody_62@y.......>
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's Relationship/Also: Ethics and Redemption

--- wirickml@v....... wrote:

> Why the big secret, other than he was a vampire, and
> couldn't have a normal relationship with Nat. To
> co-workers he was as human as they were and it made
> no sense.


Well for one thing, its not just the Human-Vampire
aspect that makes their relationship an issue.  The
fact that they are co-workers is a BIG issue.  In many
companies, organizations this is a huge no-no to work
so closely together and be involved.  I worked for a
company where I nearly got fired because I went
canoeing with a co-worker and the company found out
about it.

I think this is part of the reason why the Nick/Tracy
relationship was scrapped.  Its just not a good idea
to get involved in a romantic relationship with a
co-worker.  Sure they don't exactly work out of the
same department, but they certainly work together
enough to imply a conflict of interest.  Can you
imagine evidence or testimony could be called into
question if a personal relationship was brought in as
a bias against a criminal, who could say that perhaps
Natalie fudged evidence to help "her
boyfriend/lover/husband get a conviction??  It comes
down to a question of ethics.

Which brings me to another question that I have been
wondering about...

We all seem so quick to forgive Nick his sins... but I
have actually had conversations with people who on one
hand find the character of Nick (who face it murdered
potentially thousands over the course of his life)
completely redeemable and forgiveable, yet cannot
acknowledge that a killer who has found religion,
changed his ways and asked for forgiveness, is
deserving of forgiveness.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 15:54:26 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's Relationship/Also: Ethics and Redemption

In a message dated 5/1/05 1:31:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
mobody_62@y....... writes:


> yet cannot
> acknowledge that a killer who has found religion,
> changed his ways and asked for forgiveness, is
> deserving of forgiveness.
>

There's a difference. Nick is fictional. The man who sexually assaulted a
9-year-old Florida girl and buried her alive is very, VERY real. In reality,
how can we be sure that the person asking for forgiveness and alledging to say
he's found religion is not lying?

Plus, it is unfair to say that generalization about all FK fans or all of any
group. Ask individuals about something like that, and you are likely to get
as many different responses as there are people, as well as some people who,
like me, are very conflicted. (And believe me, I am)

All that said, I'm not quite sure that is a topic that McLisa and Don would
approve of as it has the very real potential of going off topic and creating a
list blow-up.

Remember - FK is FICTIONAL, real life is all too very real. We don't really
"forgive" Nick (or not) the same as we do a real, living person.

--Libby

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 20:03:25 +0000
From:    Amy Hull <amilynh@c.......>
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's Relationship/Also: Ethics and Redemption

Michele said:
> question if a personal relationship was brought in as
> a bias against a criminal, who could say that perhaps
> Natalie fudged evidence to help "her
> boyfriend/lover/husband get a conviction??

EXcellent point.

> We all seem so quick to forgive Nick his sins...

Well...some folks are...

> Nick (who face it murdered potentially thousands

And that's possibly a conservative estimate--700 years times 300 days a year is
210,000.  Now, he didn't probably feed every day (hence the 300 instead of
365), and there were probably days of rampages...but...definitely LOTS.  I actually
suspect that part of Nick's morass of broody moping is based on that (it's why
I had him comment to Natalie, "Do you have any idea how many thousands of
people I have murdered? It would take centuries to help just one person--to save
just one life--per victim. And that would never be enough..." in "Slippery"), and
especially its irrevocability.

> completely redeemable and forgiveable, yet cannot
> acknowledge that a killer who has found religion,
> changed his ways and asked for forgiveness, is
> deserving of forgiveness.

I actually think, although I find that 100 years of penitence and attempts to
do good to make up (however futilely) for the past to be a convincing period of
redemption to convince me of Nick's intent and commitment to his change of ways,
that Nick does not see that he could EVER make up for his past.  And, in many
ways, he can't.  He can't bring those people back.  He can't change the grief
and terror and likely poverty and possible starvation he injected into countless
MORE lives per victim.  He can't make right what he's done.

I'm often unwilling to forgive Nick very wholeheartedly because he's so
consistent in falling back on old patterns, in NOT getting better, in often getting
wors, even as he tries (or says he tries) to do good.  He does do good, but in
broad strokes.  He cannot manage a fair and kind one-on-one relatinoship with
someone close without hurting them; his ingrained modes of operation toward those
who are close to him are too dysfunctional--and he doesn't see that's the case,
so he doesn't take steps (or at least not effective and appropriate steps) to
change those things.

I have trouble TRUSTING folks who've "found religion" in prison because I'm a
coward.  I don't think they're not DESERVING of forgiveness, but I have trouble
having faith that their (imo usually quite sincere) repentance and change of
heart will LAST when people who were that volatile are faced with choices and
stressors and frustrations--especially in a society that does NOT imo effectively
support change in convicts or ex-convicts and does NOT effectively support or
welcome convicts (for the reasons I've listed and many others) back into society
in a way that will allow them to contribute and be successful and hold onto the
penitence they may have (and that many do NOT have).

Bringing this back on topic, I think that the stressors and frustrations in Nick's
life were clearly causative in almost every instance we saw of him backsliding--
either in threatening Doctor Boyfriend in "Last Act" or slipping right down
that slippery slope in FtB or threatening Natalie in "The Fix" or any number
of other situations where we saw that, for all that he's a sympathetic
character, he's also not SOLIDLY redeemed or reliably safe, no matter how much even HE
would like to be and no matter how much MORE he hates himself after slipping.

I guess I am leery of Nick's full redemption and of him receiving a full pardon
without a continued cautioned approach toward and around him just as I am about
many reformed convicts.  I am similarly gun-shy of individuals in my life who've
hurt me; I may forgive them, I may never wish them ill, but I may never feel
safe with them again.  I think I am often frustrated by Nick because he falls
right down to my (and, in fairness, his--which is part of the problem)
expectations that he CAN'T maintain his reformed ways, that he WILL still hurt
people, that you can't know when that will be or how to avoid it.

Amy
***
http://www.fanfiction.net/~amilyn

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 16:23:34 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's Relationship/Also: Ethics and Redemption

In a message dated 5/1/05 3:04:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
amilynh@c....... writes:


> I have trouble TRUSTING folks who've "found religion" in prison because I'm
> a coward.  I

I'm not a coward, I'm a realist. In FK, we KNOW Nick is above regretful for
his past. We know that because the writers let us see him when he's alone, we
see him in his flashbacks, etc. We don't see that in real life. (Not to mention
the fact there are very good people who are athiests or agnostics in the
world. In real life, there are very bad people who proclaim their religion, no
matter what their faith. Besides, there's a saying - using my own religion in
this example - that says going to church no more makes you a good Christian
than being in a garage makes you a car.<g>)

Besides, Nick's kill were often for feeding purposes. He needs blood of some
sort to stay alive. Of course in the FK version of vampires, animal blood can
give a vampire nutrition, but it obviously doesn't "satisfy" on some level as
much as human blood. Unless, of course, the vampire is a carouche <wRPg>

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 2005 20:55:41 +0000
From:    Amy Hull <amilynh@c.......>
Subject: Re: Nick & Nat's Relationship/Also: Ethics and Redemption

Libs said:
> There's a difference. Nick is fictional. The man who sexually
> assaulted a 9-year-old Florida girl and buried her alive is
> very, VERY real.

I think this is a very good point...and if we were to interview the families of
those whom Nick killed, or the individuals whose lives were permanently altered
by their deaths or Nick's threats or the terror that a rash of deaths in a
village would have created for many, or those accused falsely of crimes Nick,
LC, Janette, Erica, and others actually committed before moving on...I suspect
they'd be less forgiving than we are, even if given the evidence of 100 years of
Nick by and large eschewing that same behavior.

See "Cherry Blossoms", for example.  The man whose mother was murdered when he
was only a young boy...his life was changed forever, and that grief and horror
never faded for him.  He studied in order to learn how to gain revenge and
waited 80(?) years to do so.  HE was not willing to forgive Nick, though he was
willing to acknowledge that it was not Nick's action.  I doubt he'd have been
willing to forgive LC, but either way, LC wasn't there.  And I think the very
well-played scene where he, in tears, puts down the stake really plays well the
never-ending grief of the families of murder victims, the fact that his mother's
murder and loss was still as immediate to him decades and decades later as when
he found her on the floor.  His acknowledgement that killing Nick wouldn't bring
her back and wouldn't even gain vengeance since it wasn't Nick who killed her
is something I read as the cause for his breakdown.  I suspect he MIGHT have
killed LC...and that he still might have (probably would have) broken down into
tears because vengeance does not HEAL (imo), and it certainly doesn't UNDO.

> In reality, how can we be sure that the person asking for
> forgiveness and alledging to say he's found religion is not lying?

This is, imo, a HUGE thing.  In the real world, we simply CAN'T know.  And, in
the real world, we DO know that our recidivism rate with criminals, and the
complete FAILURE that our attempts at reformation and retraining and such are.
Here we have no assurances, as Libs said.  On FK, we have inside information that
others (like the guy from "Cherry Blossoms") didn't have; we have SEEN that Nick
has stuck to his guns for 100 years--for the most part.  As an information-
privileged audience, we get to see things from his perspective and we see that,
flawed though he still is, he is TRYING and is mostly successful--at least with
not hurting people and with helping where he can.

> as well as some people who,
> like me, are very conflicted. (And believe me, I am)

I'm conflicted about the real-world folks AND about Nick!

> Remember - FK is FICTIONAL, real life is all too very real.
> We don't really "forgive" Nick (or not) the same as we do
> a real, living person.

Well said...and Nick hasn't harmed us personally.  I still find it hard to
forgive his treatment of Natalie, and SHE'S not even real.  Pull it into the real
world and that gets all the messier and more complicated--and much, much scarier
and costlier in terms of human suffering.

Libs said:
>I'm not a coward, I'm a realist.

You know...I think I like that better.  I am AFRAID...but I'm afraid because of
the realism I have and the knowledge I have, as well as, like you mentioned,
the fact that while with Nick, we get a chance to see who he REALLY is because
the show and the writers show us this and are reliable narrators in terms of
letting us be observers, we don't have that with real life folks.

Amy
***
http://www.fanfiction.net/~amilyn

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 30 Apr 2005 to 1 May 2005 (#2005-116)
**************************************************************


Previous digest Back to May's list Next digest






Parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/