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FORKNI-L Digest - 28 Nov 2004 to 29 Nov 2004 (#2004-330)

Mon, 29 Nov 2004

There are 20 messages totalling 772 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. this is it, folks (4)
  2. YKYAFKFW... (2)
  3. What Do You Get A Vampire for Christmas...
  4. French pronunciation (was: FK Moment) (2)
  5. medieval toys (2)
  6. medieval toys:TNQ (2)
  7. Episode Nine
  8. Just letting you all know...
  9. FK Moment
 10. Upcoming List Anniversary Project.
 11. Fw: Admin: Forkni-l Rules
 12. Admin: Remember the quotation limit!
 13. looking for a story

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:30:09 -0500
From:    Monica Rodriguez <doctormon@m.......>
Subject: this is it, folks

Congratulations, everyone, on finishing the war with relatively little
incident - at least from an outsider's perspective. I'm still trying to
get a chance to read it!
Well, I've been putting this off for a few months now, but I'm here to
say goodbye. I've been on this list since 1998, and have stayed for many
years primarily because of the wonderful community of people I've found
here.
But I have much less online time now, and I need to pare down on my
lists and email in general. So, I'm going to sign off this list.
You guys have been terrific. You rally together for a list member in
need without hesitation. After September 11, I was so touched by the
outpouring of concern and well wishes here. This was my first list of
this kind, as well as my introduction to fanfic and the online fan
community/phenomenon, and I have rarely found a group of people like
those gathered here since.
Thanks for the discussions, the stories, the FK moments, and your
friendship. 1228 will always be a magic number!

monica (aka luscious lucius lover)
I can be your strength when you have none. I can be your wisdom, your
truth. All you need to share with me is your very soul.
We are each other, eternally.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:12:04 -0800
From:    Aviva Blumenthal <viv11374@y......>
Subject: Re: YKYAFKFW...

--- Dory Blankenship <DORY12485@a.......> wrote:

> ...you have a dream involving one of the FK actors.

<SNIP>

 I saw John Kapelos at one on the end.
> I called out "Mr. Kapelos!" in order to get his attention, but
>

Uh-uh. It's when you hahve the dream and call him 'Detective Schanke'.

=====


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:29:50 -0800
From:    Aviva Blumenthal <viv11374@y......>
Subject: Re: What Do You Get A Vampire for Christmas...

--- Linda Hepden <kezia.hepden@n.......> wrote:

> Let's see, aside of what's already been mentioned...
>
> > Subscription to a Canadian police magazine
>
> An inflatable crocodile (whoops!  Sorry, wrong list!)

What list is that from?



>


=====


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:02:30 -0800
From:    NAT <nat1228@c.......>
Subject: Re: this is it, folks

At 03:30 PM 11/28/2004, Monica Rodriguez wrote:
>Well, I've been putting this off for a few months now, but I'm here to say
>goodbye. I've been on this list since 1998, and have stayed for many years
>primarily because of the wonderful community of people I've found here.

We'll miss you, Monica! I'm glad you stuck around for as long as you have.
While I'm no longer overly active in the fandom, I haven't been able to let
FORKNI-L go just because of the wonderful community that it is. But the
time comes when one must move on, and when you're short of time for lists
and Internet, some things have got to go. I suspect the list will be here
for a while, should you ever decide to come join us again.

Good luck in whatever you have planned to do!

Hugs,
Nat

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
nat1228@c.......  -- Knightie, N&NPack
http://www.squidge.org/~nat1228/fk.htm
http://www.squidge.org/~nat1228/links.htm

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:09:30 +0000
From:    Nicola De Brabant <lucien1228@h.......>
Subject: Re: this is it, folks

We'll miss you. Have a great holiday and stay safe. Goodbye.



>From: Monica Rodriguez <doctormon@m.......>
>Reply-To: Forever Knight TV show <FORKNI-L@l.......>
>To: FORKNI-L@l.......
>Subject: this is it, folks
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:30:09 -0500
>
>Congratulations, everyone, on finishing the war with relatively little
>incident - at least from an outsider's perspective. I'm still trying to
>get a chance to read it!
>Well, I've been putting this off for a few months now, but I'm here to
>say goodbye. I've been on this list since 1998, and have stayed for many
>years primarily because of the wonderful community of people I've found
>here.
>But I have much less online time now, and I need to pare down on my
>lists and email in general. So, I'm going to sign off this list.
>You guys have been terrific. You rally together for a list member in
>need without hesitation. After September 11, I was so touched by the
>outpouring of concern and well wishes here. This was my first list of
>this kind, as well as my introduction to fanfic and the online fan
>community/phenomenon, and I have rarely found a group of people like
>those gathered here since.
>Thanks for the discussions, the stories, the FK moments, and your
>friendship. 1228 will always be a magic number!
>
>monica (aka luscious lucius lover)
>I can be your strength when you have none. I can be your wisdom, your
>truth. All you need to share with me is your very soul.
>We are each other, eternally.


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:21:02 -0800
From:    Aviva Blumenthal <viv11374@y......>
Subject: Re: French pronunciation (was: FK Moment)

--- Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......> wrote:

> I've also heard that it's the French in France that have their
> pronunciation
> wrong! Supposedly, there was a vowel shift in France after the
> colonies of New> France were cut off
>

The fact that there was a vowel shift does not make the standard
pronunciation of each dialect any less the standard pronuciation
of that dialect.
Of course, how each dialect pronounces a word is another story...

=====


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:29:31 -0800
From:    fkforever <fkforever@y......>
Subject: Re: this is it, folks

Monica

We'll miss you.

Please comeback if life becomes less busy.



=====
Desiree

www.knighties.50megs.com
www.suncoastbible.org


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:46:46 -0500
From:    Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: medieval toys

The last few days have been interesting -- enough that I decided to do
some quick and dirty research, i.e. by googling on "medieval childhood
toys".  Got a lot of responses, too.  Given that the initial question
regarded a present for Natalie to give Nick, it's maybe overkill to
suggest the *real* resource, which is a good library, but I found
reference to a Yale University Press book, "Medieval Children", by
Nicholas Orme, published 2001.  Good reviews; and apparently it does
have stuff on toys.  Apart from that, there are a few brief on-line
articles, including some that describe actual toys that have been
recovered by archeologists, as well as things illustrated or mentioned
contemporaneously.  These include:
    - hollow-cast pewter figures, such as a knight (think tin
soldiers, or G.I. Joe) -- there's one been found that's only a little
later than Nick's day, c. 1300
    - ceramic puppets and horses (and probably wooden ones, as well)
    - hobby horses (i.e. carved horse-heads on a stick)
    - toy weapons
    - balls (but *not* rubber), bat-and-shuttlecock, cup&ball, quoits
Plenty of options.  And, even though Nick would have been sent to
train as a page when he was five or six, that hardly precludes his
having memories of his early childhood, when he was living in the
women's part of the castle and *did* have a lot of playtime.  I know
that I have clear memories of being four and five, the more so since
we moved from Britain to Canada when I was nearly six, which puts a
sharp partition in my life at that point.  Being taken from home and
sent somewhere else as a page would have put an equally sharp end to
Nick's early days, sequestering those memories from any later overlay
that would've muddled them.  I can certainly see him reminiscing about
some favourite toy!
    Now the next question:  which would have been his favourite?

Greer

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:08:27 +0000
From:    Luicia <luicia1705@y.......>
Subject: Re: medieval toys:TNQ

I'm gonna vote for the hobby horse LOL...Nat could help him create his very own
stable at the loft without having to worry about all the hay and manure ;P

Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......> wrote: Now the next question: which would
have been his favourite?

Greer




 If all the world's a stage....then where on earth's my script?!


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:32:16 -0500
From:    Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Re: medieval toys:TNQ

Can't you just see a little blond four-year-old, straddling the stick of
the hobby horse, prancing around the solar on his "pony" while his
mother and her maids are trying to sew?

Greer


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Luicia
  To: Greer Watson
  Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 11:04 PM
  Subject: Re: medieval toys:TNQ


  I'm gonna vote for the hobby horse LOL...Nat could help him create his
very own stable at the loft without having to worry about all the hay
and manure ;P

  Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......> wrote:
    Now the next question: which would have been his favourite?

    Greer




   If all the world's a stage....then where on earth's my script?!


------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:05:33 -0500
From:    Greer Watson <gwatson2@r.......>
Subject: Episode Nine

I just realized how quickly we are getting on through the fourth
season.  Episode Nine already!  As well as linking this in, I've now
added a page to the Sets section, describing Natalie's office.  In
detail.  (Pictures, too, of course.)
The url for the site is:
http://ca.geocities.com/gwatson2@rogers.com/index.html.


Greer

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:17:39 EST
From:    Dory Blankenship <DORY12485@a.......>
Subject: Re: YKYAFKFW...

--- Aviva Blumenthal <viv11374@y......> wrote:
>Uh-uh. It's when you hahve the dream and call him 'Detective Schanke'.

Haven't had that one yet, I'm afraid.  Plus, I'm always
petrified I'll go to a fan event like Stratford or LCA
and call one of the actors or actresses by their
character's name, so apparently the drilling worked! :)
AgapePhilos,
Dory (who *almost* said "Hi, Ms. Duchêne!" to a Janette
look-alike not too long ago)
Faith.  Pure, simple faith. - Jeanne d'Arc.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:52:06 -0800
From:    Kryshana Bennett <wldthngwthfngs@h.......>
Subject: Just letting you all know...

KC is going to be offline for at least the next few days. She is VERY ill
with a cold or flu. Poor thing is miserable.  I'm sure she'll read all of
your messages regarding gifts for Nick when she's up and about again. She'll
be thrilled to see all the wonderful answers you've come up with!

Shana Bennett
Valentine... and I'm not changing it, KC!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:15:09 -0700
From:    Becky <beckp@i.......>
Subject: Re: FK Moment

If you are refering to Boise in Idaho, we pronounce it BOYcee.

Becky

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brenda Bell" <webwarren@e.......>
To: <FORKNI-L@l.......>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: FK Moment


> At 10:25 PM 11/27/2004, Nancy Kaminski wrote:
>
> >Welcome to the Midwest (LaCroix water is from Wisconsin), where we
> >have our own spin on French names, such as the St. Croix (Saint Croy)
> >River and Prairie Du Chien (Prairie duh Sheen), Wisconsin.
>
> And cities like "Duh MOYNZ" (Des Moines), "CURdaleene" (Coeur d'Alene), and
> "BOY Zee" (Boise)...
>
> >It never occurred to me to pronounce LaCroix water any other way!
>
> While I would have thought the cities in question to be pronounced "Day
> MWAN", "Coeur dah LEN", and "BWAHZZ"... OTOH, I grew up on "LawnGUYlinn"
> (Long Island), took French for my "foreign language", and went to uni in
> the greater "BAHstin" (Boston) area...
>
>
>
> Brenda F. Bell   webwarren@e.......   /nick TMana     IM: n2kye
> Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
>          UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
> HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/
> Gerthering 3 Photos:  https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
> Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:34:42 -0500
From:    Phoenix <phoenix@s.......>
Subject: Upcoming List Anniversary Project.

I'd like to give a shout out to the mailing list a few days early, to give
people time to prepare, if they'd like.

On December 9th, 2004, FORKNI-L will celebrate its /twelfth/ anniversary.
12.  WOW.

In honor of that anniversary, and as a way of thanking our silent partner
in crime, Penn State's postmaster Bill Verity, I'd like to collect thank
you notes and/or holiday cards, as well as his favorite M&Ms (Smarties if
you're Canadian or English!), to be sent to him in a kind of care package.
As I have an international store nearby, I can purchase Smarties (from
both Canada /and/ the UK, ironically enough) on behalf of listmembers who
are willing to PayPal funds to me.  I'm footing the postage bill for all
the notes and cards and chocolate, so no need to worry about that.  If all
you can offer is an emailed thank you note, I can print it out for him as
well.  Please sign any such cards with your names and email addresses, so
he knows they came from listmembers and not from a bunch of freaks I
rounded up on the streets here in Cincinnati. :)

PayPal address:  phoenix@s.......
Snail address for paper cards: Jean Prior, xxxx xxxxxxx xxxx xx,
xxxxxxxxxx, xx xxxxx (USA).

I'll be sending the package out on the list anniversary (9 December), so
that should give the post time to get to me first.

And a belated THANKS! to everyone who emailed me on my birthday due to the
posting in October.  Been so shardin' busy writing Stargate novels... now
if they'll only /buy/ them!

The Elder Stateskitty...

--

Jean Prior
aka Jayekitty
or Phoenix

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:42:49 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Fw: Admin: Forkni-l Rules

Sorry -- better late than never.  I had a really bad cold Saturday and Sunday,
and no ancient Missisaugan remedy. :) -- McLisa

> If you need a hand or have any questions please don't hesitate to contact
> Don Fasig Argent@c....... or Lisa McDavid  mclisa@m.......>.
> >
>  For tips on managing your Forever Knight subscriptions please visit
>  Don's page at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7139/fk-lists.htm
>
>  List digests are archived at:
> If you need a hand or have any questions please don't hesitate to contact
> Don Fasig Argent@c....... or Lisa McDavid  mclisa@m.......>.
> >
>  For tips on managing your Forever Knight subscriptions please visit
>  Don's page at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7139/fk-lists.htm
>
>  List digests are archived at:
> https://knightwind1228.tripod.com/forkni.htm
>
>  FORKNI-L RULES
>
>  1. No flames on list. FLAMERS MAY BE SET NOPOST. THE NOPOST MAY BE
> PERMANENT.
>
>  2. Please don't quote more than four lines of a previous post in replying.
> If you have more than one point to answer, then you may  quote the relevant
> four lines for that point also.
>
>  3. Limit sigs to 6 lines. Your sig starts with the first thing you write
> after the text. It includes all the lines under that, even blank lines. If
> you have one of those providers that insists on putting an ad after that,
> don't worry. The ad doesn't count.
>
> 4. Please don't send to the whole list when you are only talking to  the
> person who wrote the post you are answering.
>
>  5. Advertising on list is on a case by case basis. Please consult the
> listowners, Lisa McDavid, mclisa@m....... or Don Fasig,
> Argent@c....... for permission.
>
>  6. This list is for the discussion of Forever Knight and related topics.
> FK cast and behind the camera people are ok, except that we don't discuss
> private lives.  Announcments by authorized spokespersons about events in
> those lives are ok.  List members' fannish activities are ok, as are sharing
> personal events in our lives.  Non-FK vampires or vampires in general or not
> ok. PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT PROJECTS WHICH HAVEN'T BEEN OFFCIALLY ANNOUNCED
> OR WRITTEN ABOUT IN THE MEDIA.
>
> 7. No off-topic posts are without permission from a listowner.  This
> includes virus warnings.
>
> 8.. No role-playing on Forkni-l. This includes character names as
> pseudonyms or posing as a character.
>
> 9.  Each subscriber is limited to five posts per day on Forkni-l.
>
> McLisa (Lisa McDavid)
> "That will be trouble".
> Listowner, Forkni-l and Fkfic-l
> mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:17:55 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Admin: Remember the quotation limit!

Guys, Forkni-l has a strict limit on the number of lines to be quoted from the
post you are answering.  It is 4 lines per point answered.  I've seen a number
of posts where this was either forgotten or private posts were sent to the list
by mistake.  Please don't make me start having to enforce this rule by
noposting those who break it.

To all those who have remembered, thanks!

McLisa
listowner, Forkni-l
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:55:43 -0700
From:    Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: medieval toys

> cup&ball
I don't know about the medieval period, but in the 18th & 19th century, this
toy (aka "bilbo catcher") was strongly associated with girls.
>     Now the next question:  which would have been his favourite?
The stick horse, of course! Nick's love of animals (e.g. Blind Faith) clearly
stems from an early age. He probably grew up playing with all sorts of dogs, and
of course he has several centuries of knowledge on horses. (BTW, it was clearly
NOT Nick's fault that the horses bolted in Let No Man Tear Asunder, since we
see him on horseback in other, post-vamp episodes. That was just how Victor was
trying to manipulate him into helping to treat Veronica, either by bringing her
across or obtaining a heart.)

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

P.S. Maybe what Natalie really gets for him is...a puppy?!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:41:14 -0500
From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: French pronunciation (was: FK Moment)

At 09:45 AM 11/28/2004, Angela Gottfried wrote:

>I've also heard that it's the French in France that have their
>pronunciation wrong! Supposedly, there was a vowel shift in France after
>the colonies of New France were cut off (after the conquest of New France
>by Britain in 1759);

Doris (CousinLucilla) wrote:

>Same thing happened to English around Shakespeare's time (it's called the
>Great Vowel Shift). So Shakespeare probably sounded more American than
>modern British (linguists think the English of the times sounded like
>modern Irish actually) than you think

As I recall from my one college linguistics class, "The Great Vowel Shift"
was a pan-European phenomenon that occurred between the 12th and 14th
Centuries CE; it is what differentiates the "old" forms of the languages in
question from the "middle" forms of that language. However, IIRC, "modern"
English refers to English post-1600, and Shakespeare would have produced
most of his work just after -- rather than just before -- that change.

However, regionalisms in pronunciation remained -- remain even to this day,
though we are getting better at understanding different regions'
pronunciations and usages. If you saw even some of the PBS series, _The
Story of English_, you'll recall how modern New England accents evolved
from those of southeastern England, while those of the Southeastern and
Southern US evolved from a different area of England, and some modern
Appalachian accents show evidence of the Scots-Irish roots of the first
British settlers of the Carolinas.

Angela continued:

>in France, they changed from saying moi as "moy" to saying "mwa" while in
>North America the pronunciation remained unchanged. On the other hand, in
>Quebec French today, the pronunciation is not "moy" but "mway". So I have
>no idea what the real story is--

One of the confusions in dealing with the evolution of the French language
is that in the geographic area of modern France there were *two* languages
-- one spoken in the north, and one in the south, referred to as "langue
d'oï" and "langue d'oc", based on how they pronounced the word for "yes"
("oui" in modern French). IIRC -- and it's been a while since I studied
French -- "langue d'oï", spoken in the north, evolved into modern French,
while "langue d'oc", spoken in the south, evolved into modern Spanish...

>for some strange reason, most writing on the history of French
>pronunciation is in (technical) French...

This makes sense. When dealing with multiple pronunciations of a given
language that has a standardized written form, that written form becomes
the _lingua franca_ (common language) that makes the speakers of multiple
regionalisms understandable to each other. Also, by using the International
Phonetic Alphabet --  based on the physical attributes of pronouncing any
given sound in (almost?) any human language -- one can (in theory) make
those pronounciation differences "hearable" by readers of other "dialects".

The bigger problems in trans-regional comprehension, IMO, are changes in
lexicon (specific words and phrases used) and usage. I'm sure most of you
in the US have run into the "soda or pop?" question when traveling to a
different area of the country. In the Boston area, the general word is
"tonic" (in the greater NYC area that means "tonic water" or "quinine
water"), while in the Atlanta area (home of Coca-Cola), it's "coke". And
can someone in the Philly area please explain to us outsiders exactly
*which* highway/freeway/thoroughfare is meant by "the Blue Route" (I don't
remember seing that phrase used on any highway signs)? I'd venture that
these sorts of differences in lexicon and usage are more important than
differences in pronunciation in determining "dialect".

Now, I *did* read a little bit on the pronunciation of middle French (many
years ago, and I couldn't check the book out of the library). Between what
I recall from that, and looking at some of the spellings used in dialectal
(possibly Middle?) French Christmas carols, I can see at least one
transformation in orthography (spelling) which appears to have followed,
rather than preceded, a change in pronunciation: the replacement of
"vowel-s" with "vowel-circumflex" ("vêtement" vs. "vestement", "hôtel" vs.
"hostel", etc.) Pronunciation changes include the silencing of the "s" in
that "vowel-s" construction, the nasalization of a final "n" or "m", the
silencing of an unaccented final "e" or "es" (except in some poetry and
song -- e.g., "Frère Jacques"), and the silencing of a final "ent" in
third-person-plural verb conjugations, or its elision as merely "t" ("Ils
travaillent jusqu'à midi; puis ils commencent à jouer au football.")

I also recall reading in a special-edition of Time Magazine "published" in
"1789" (actually, it was one of two special-editions published during the
US Bicentennial year of 1976) that Daniel Webster was responsible for
setting some of what is now the "standardized" US pronunciation of some
words during a time of variable pronunciations: the current pronunciations
of "sound" and all the words spelled similarly, AND the pronunciation of
"wound" (injury) to rhyme with "spooned", "because it falls softer on the
ear". (I wish I could find where I stashed that particular magazine for
safekeeping...)

I guess that's the roundabout way of saying that language keeps changing,
pronunciation keeps changing, and we have ways of determining what the
older (and/or dialectal) pronunciations and usages *were*...


***But back to the original "LahCROY/LahKHWAH" and "ShevuhLEER/ShuhvalYAY"
matter***

I've observed that after a generation or two, many immigrants "Americanize"
the pronunciation of their last names so that they're understandable by the
less-cosmopolitan members of the community with which they must interact,
and so that those community members can at least get the written forms of
those names (which must correspond to the spellings used in "official"
documentation) close to correct. An example I'll give is a former co-worker
with the last name "Jakim", properly/originally pronounced "yahKEEM". When
dealing with someone on the phone who's not seen that name in writing, and
with whom he's going to have to have a written dialog, he'll pronounce his
last name "JAKEimm" to make sure it gets spelled somewhere close to
correctly. Following this "Americanization rule" of phonology, "LahCROY"
and "ShevuhLEER" are both correct pronunciations for the United States,
even though some of us Francophones/Francophiles might shudder at the very
thought of it.



Brenda F. Bell   webwarren@e.......   /nick TMana     IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
         UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos:  https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:20:10 -0500
From:    Sarah Merchant <sarah@r.......>
Subject: Re: looking for a story

I also found another X-over today. I haven't read it yet but it looks like
it could be good.

Summer Knight http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/sk.htm

Sarah

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 28 Nov 2004 to 29 Nov 2004 (#2004-330)
***************************************************************


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