FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 1 Sep 2004 to 2 Sep 2004 - Special issue (#2004-242)

Thu, 2 Sep 2004

There are 32 messages totalling 1010 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Admin: FK vampires and sexual relationships (4)
  2. Vampiric relationships (15)
  3. Lacroix's time was Re: Reply
  4. Tape tree (2)
  5. Cow Blood (4)
  6. Reply
  7. Cow blood+medieval attitudes
  8. Vampiric Relationships
  9. The Goth community in general
 10. Screed's white lab rat
 11. Nick & LC's relationship

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:47:51 -0700
From:    Laurie of the Isles <laudon1228@y.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: FK vampires and sexual relationships

I want to thank McLisa for her able and sensitive list
management, and Libby for her dignity and restraint.

Laurie of the Isles
Laudon1228@y.......
UF, Rainbow-Knights, FKPagans

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:27:45 -0700
From:    Johnsie <johnsierp1@y.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

Exactly.  Screed only chose the finest in rodentia to dine upon.   Nick's
bottles were filled by the epitome of bovine excellence.   The theory adds
another layer to why LaCroix was repulsed by Hitler; he didn't want to have
*that* in him.  Divia was affected by her sire, for certain, as he was a
vampire of Egyptian background, IIRC, and they had no qualms about incest.

Johnsie, Leader o' the 'Pack

Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......> wrote:
Wow, Johnsie,

I never thought it that way. I like that idea though. Nick making himself
placid would definitely be repugnant to Lacroix, I suppose, like mixing
battery acid in champagne. Whatever quality drew Lacroix to the knight would
be perhaps unbearably altered by the constant influx of cow blood... Small
wonder the sire didn't approve.

This begs another consideration: The prey that a vampire selects must be
chosen for more than food value, right? There must be something that
attracts the vampire's sense of esthetics, not just their momentary hunger.
In order to bring their victim across (purposefully not accidentally) there
must be more again, to prompt the vampire's desire to prolong their life.

Food for thought (pun only marginally intended) :)
as always,
Kat

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:34:14 -0400
From:    mary combs <combsm@e.......>
Subject: Lacroix's time was Re: Reply

Cheryl wrote:

>  Like it was stated before, Lacroix
> lived during a time when it was not unheard of for men in power to have some
> sort of homosexual relationship.

Lacroix' mortal life is not a good place to look for support for the idea
that he would have seen an intimate relationship with Nick or any other man
as a perfectly normal thing. Better to stick with the idea that he shed any
compunctions along that line (and many others) after he became a vampire.

Lucius lived during a time when men in power could have homosexual
relationships with pre-pubescent slave boys without risking censure from
society, as long as they didn't get too besotted and surrender the power
position in the relationship. When the favorite became a man (developing a
beard was often the turning point), he was no longer an appropriate target
for his master's desire. A powerful man who pursued another grown man--even
a slave--as a love object would have been a figure of fun. Jokes about
Greeks would probably have been involved.

I think it's very important to note when considering the Lacroix character
in this context that the reaction among his peers to the revelation that a
man of his sort had taken an adult male lover would have been horrified,
disgusted, contemptuous *laughter*

The importance of a man taking the dominant role in any relationship was so
pervasive in the concept of sexual morality of the time that a man who took
certain simple steps to please his wife would have been putting himself
beyond the pale if it were ever known that he had abased himself so
shamefully. (Horror, no laughter.)

Of course, as always in human history, there were men of high social
standing who violated the mores (customs) of the time, some no doubt by
having illicit relationships with grown men, and some perhaps by providing
their wives with tender attentions. But I don't think that fits with what
we know of Lucius - in either case <gr>

BTW, if anyone cares, for the sake of full disclosure, I myself don't
envision or write LC and Nick as having that kind of relationship. I see  a
mentor who refuses to change from a father to a brother/friend, and has in
fact taken steps--by deliberately witholding knowledge--to keep the pupil
in school eternally.

Mary
N&Npack

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:37:17 -0700
From:    Johnsie <johnsierp1@y.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: FK vampires and sexual relationships

Dignitee hat hall costs!  Tiz the very mottOoo of da RatPack!

WhoopwhoopWHOOP!!!!!!!!!!   ('ands shud 'ave thumb and forefinger touching so
theyz a circle and next ta heach hother, hother fingees straight and inverted
over da face and then ya kick high whilst whoopin'  has noted habuv.  Try hit,
espeshully in public; folks jest gaze hall hagog hat yer dignitee.)

Johnsie, Leader o' the 'Pack and a very dignified droogie

Laurie of the Isles <laudon1228@y.......> wrote:
I want to thank McLisa for her able and sensitive list
management, and Libby for her dignity and restraint.

Laurie of the Isles
Laudon1228@y.......
UF, Rainbow-Knights, FKPagans

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:46:41 -0700
From:    Johnsie <johnsierp1@y.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

The theory could still hold true since the sexuality would be innate to the
person drained while the skill was merely something learned later.  The skill
would dissipate far sooner than sexuality granted by the blood.   The flavor of
food, even a sugar rush, would dissipate far sooner than the calories gained by
what you ingest.

*sigh*  Don't I know that....

Looking forward to what others might be able to glean from their viewing of the
shows.

Johnsie, Leader o' the 'Pack



Stacy <theknightcallsmyname@y.......> wrote:
>>>The way I saw FK vamps was that the blood they drank had an effect on them.
They gained some of the skills, like playing the violin, and some of the traits
of the person, including an aspect of their sexuality.

This is a very interesting theory. Though I seem to remember that in Francesca
(sp?), it was implied that the effect (like gaining the ability to play the
violin) would dissipate after a few hours. It's been a long time since I watched
that episode, and I don't have it downloaded yet, so I can't check to see if I'm
right. Anybody else know if this is correct?

Stacy


DarkNN'er, Faithful
theknightcallsmyname@y.......
http://www.geocities.com/theknightcallsmyname/index2.html
YIM: theknightcallsmyname

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:05:38 -0700
From:    Johnsie <johnsierp1@y.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

True enough, Janette runs the club she does to attract a certain type of
clientele.  There is a reason she is sensual and lusty!

LaCroix has to have the most particular of tastes; I would expect he attracts
people initially due to his Nightcrawler broadcasts and taking calls.  He knows
who is alone yet intelligent and sophisticated enough to pay attention to what
he says.

Vachon is in a funky part of town and leads a funky kind of life; it's what
keeps him so cool.  Urs has 'issues' due to the type of people she has available
to her.  I mean, talk about a diet that is bad for you!

Johnsie, Leader o' the 'Pack

Libratsie@a....... wrote:
It was written:

**The prey that a vampire selects must be
chosen for more than food value, right? There must be something that
attracts the vampire's sense of esthetics,**

That's a good point. After all, Screed dropped the ordinary sewer rat for a
nice, shiny pretty white rat, the remains of which now reside in my nightstand
drawer (well, where else can I keep it? )

Of course, I also love Johnsie's theory and it is something I've pondered
meselfishness. Especially since rats (thus Screed) have certain appetites that are
(how can I phrase this PG?) ... pretty heavy besides the appetite for what they
eat.

It certainly explains a couple of my adult fan fic stories, doesn't h'it?

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:19:36 -0700
From:    Ithildin <ithildin@o.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

At 03:47 PM 9/1/2004 -0400, Katherine DeVries wrote:
>This begs another consideration: The prey that a vampire selects must be
>chosen for more than food value, right?

That's been an aspect of FK that has always fascinated me. In many ways,
that fascination became the centerpiece for a lot of my fic. Just another
reason that FK was more than just an average TV show! :)



Denise * ithildin@o.......* Ith
http://www.ondragonswing.com/dragonstone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tales From The Darkwood
http://www.ondragonswing.com/tales

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:19:47 +0000
From:    Nicola De Brabant <lucien1228@h........>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

i do agree that Nick and LaCroix would be affected by there mortal lives,
but could having a relationship with LaCroix be one of the things that Nick
regrets?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:25:51 +0000
From:    Nicola De Brabant <lucien1228@h........>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

If Nick and LaCroix did have a relationship it could have been because
LaCroix convinced Nick that it was alright, or because Nick was depressed
(which was partly was he aloud himsellf to be brought across) so couldn't he
have also ignored his morals about homosexual relationships?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:42:54 -0500
From:    Becky Hinson <bayoubecky@c.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

From: "Nicola De Brabant" <lucien1228@h........>


> If Nick and LaCroix did have a relationship <snip> because Nick was depressed
> (which was partly was he aloud himsellf to be brought across) so couldn't he
> have also ignored his morals about homosexual relationships?

This got me to thinking...  Do you think since Nick was so disillusioned
with everything life had to offer, he may have seen becoming a vampire as a
type of suicide?  Suicide is worthy of damnation, according to the Catholic
church, isn't it?  So going off of that, why would morals have anything to
do with that since he's going to hell anyway?  Kind of like cheating on a
diet -- what's one bite?  Then what's one more bite since I already took
one?

Hope that made sense...  And if it did make sense, and it wasn't entirely
correct, then please correct me!

:)
~Cousin Becky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:48:40 -0500
From:    Becky Hinson <bayoubecky@c.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: FK vampires and sexual relationships

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie of the Isles" <laudon1228@y.......>


> I want to thank McLisa for her able and sensitive list
> management, and Libby for her dignity and restraint.

I want to echo that!!  Bravo!

:)
~Cousin Becky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:50:47 -0700
From:    Megan Hull <mistrydder@y.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

>Nick drinking cow blood was going to make him.... placid.

But would it have?  Animal blood is chemically different from human blood, and
Nick was admonished more than once that it wasn't particularly good for him.
Probably only marginally nutritional.  Would Nick be able to 'see' or 'read'
anything in cow's blood, or would it be too different for that?

             -Megan


"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:52:28 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

For those looking into the origins of the vampire, in this case FK character,
for their sexual behavior today, we should remember that attitudes and
behaviors can, and do, change. I **PERSONALLY** don't think sexuality does, at
least I don't think it did in my case, a person can just finally admit to him
or herself attraction to the same, or even opposite, sex at some point in their
existence. I speak from personal experience and numerous conversations with
others in real life and online.

Let's say, just for the sake of this discussion, that Nick (or LaCroix, for
that matter) was attracted to another man previously. Due to his original
birth-time, religious training, reactions by society, he may convince himself
that such attraction doesn't exist only to finally admit to himself in the more
free 1980s, 1990s and so on, that there's nothing wrong with such a relationship
... for others, then gradually realize that he is, in fact, attracted to the
same sex and there's nothing "wrong" with him (there's just something "wrong"
with bigotry).

So, it could be, if LaCroix is, indeed, attracted to Nick sexually, he just
needs to be patient. <g>

But, my statement earlier still stands - in the FK universe as we know it
from filmed episodes, there really is no right or wrong to whether the two men
were ever sexually involved. We don't know for sure.  Each fan can decide for
him or herself. Unlike in ANGEL where Spike even said that he and Angel "were
never intimate ... except for that once,"  (I just loved the way he said it
like it was no big deal) it was never established in FK.

In fact, I can take or leave a Nick/LaCroix physical relationship. Just
depends on what I feel like writing. Since it wasn't shown in the show, I don't
know for sure and have bigger real life things to worry about.

However, to say such a relationship is gross, especially from the father/son,
brother/brother aspect since Nick and Janette CERTAINLY had a relationship
(for how long? Did Janette say 92 years?), is... well... questionable.  In the
fictional world of FK vampires, the vampires may see themselves as a family of
master  or sire or father/child as well as brothers and sisters, but quite
obviously from what we've seen in the Nick and Janette relationship, it doesn't
mean the same thing. Well it definitely would be wrong and absolutely taboo to
have such a physical relationship in the modern human world, the 'family'
means something different to the vampire culture. They "sire" offspring, but it
is not the same birth as a mortal mother giving birth to a mortal child.

Is my interest in anthropology coming out now?<g>

Just remember, this is FICTION. Not real. Made up. It wasn't stated, we don't
know for sure, so there's no right or wrong.

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:53:59 -0700
From:    Megan Hull <mistrydder@y.......>
Subject: Re: Tape tree

So..... do you have any of the eps I mentioned?

              -Megan


"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:59:48 -0700
From:    Amanda Berendt <debrabant_foundation@y.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

--- Nicola De Brabant <lucien1228@h........> wrote:

> If Nick and LaCroix did have a relationship it could have been
> because LaCroix convinced Nick that it was alright, or because Nick
> was depressed


Good point.  Nick being, apparently, an easily suggestable person, it
could be that LC enticed him into the relationship.  And perhaps that
is one of the reasons why, in the more recent decades or so of their
history, Nick has more fervently tried to distance himself from his
master.
Just a thought.
My own thoughts on their relationship fluctuate depending on my own
mood and observations.

-Amanda

=====
"This thing... man... whatever it is...evil may have created it, left its mark
on it, but evil does not rule it.  So I cannot kill it."  - Gabriel Van Helsing
http://www.darksideoftheglass.com


------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:16:32 -0700
From:    Megan Hull <mistrydder@y.......>
Subject: Re: Tape tree

AKKK!  Sorry, that was supposed to go private!  (I could have SWORN I checked
the 'to' box before hitting 'send')

      -Megan

Megan Hull <mistrydder@y.......> wrote:
So..... do you have any of the eps I mentioned?

-Megan


"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:33:02 -0500
From:    DLPH <DLPH@c.......>
Subject: Cow Blood

>  Would Nick be able to 'see' or 'read' anything in cow's blood

They have repetedly shown, that the vamp
gets the persons thoughts & abilitys

When Janette bit a violin player - she could play a violin
without haveing to practice    (for a while)

Since Nick drank so much cow blood
did he get flashes of being in out a field?

Did he have a sudden urge to just sit & chew his cud?

Did he get nervous driving by Burger King?

Did he have a deep fear of being cut up into pattys?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:35:15 -0400
From:    Deborah Hymon <debh@e.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

on 9/1/04 8:52 PM, Libratsie@a....... at Libratsie@a....... wrote:

***Just remember, this is FICTION. Not real. Made up. It wasn't stated, we
don't know for sure, so there's no right or wrong

Oh, Libs!  Once again you summed it all up in your statement. YES! Thank you
very much.

***attracted to the same sex and there's nothing "wrong" with him (there's
just something "wrong" with bigotry).

Yes, there something very wrong with bigotry. Live and let live, and keep
your moral and religious opinions to yourself. People are entitled to the
same respect regardless of sexuality preference.

***But, my statement earlier still stands - in the FK universe as we know it
from filmed episodes, there really is no right or wrong to whether the two
men were ever sexually involved. We don't know for sure.  Each fan can
decide for him or herself.

I was a regular, addicted fan of FK during the original airing from 1992-96,
and I can't ever remember thinking N&L had a gay relationship. Flashbacks
showed LaCroix with Selene, and there were a few more incidents that made me
think he loved the women. And we all know Nick was a lady's man and still
was in modern time, considering the 'neck of the week' specials. <LOL>

Watching the show, I remember thinking of the two men as a over protective,
possessive, domineering father and rebellious son who hated rules and what
the father demanded of him, especially his father's expected behavior of his
son--to embrace the vampire and be thankful for what I have given you,
immortality, and don't reject the gift.   It wasn't until I started joining
FK groups and reading FK fan fiction, and read some of the post and stories,
that I even thought about the two men having a possible gay relationship.

I totally agree with you, there is no right and wrong. This is fiction, and
that's the wonderful thing about it. Ten people can read a story or watch a
TV show and each person will get their own ideas from the work.  Fiction
stirs the imagination, as it should.

Thanks again for your comments.

Deb
DeborahAHymon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:38:43 -0700
From:    Megan Hull <mistrydder@y.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

Disagreement, but then, my theories on sexuality don't exactly jive with
current 'wisdom'.  The way I see it (the following information is entirely
opinion and, as far as I know, has no scientific data to back it up): Human
beings are sexual.  Period.  Male, female, the body will respond, sometimes
whether we want it to or not (and I've been in some rather annoying 'NOT'
situations).  Sexuality, itself, is psychologically based; like most
psychological traits, there are certain genetic factors that help the
preference along, but don't have nearly so much influence as personal history
and experiences (including societal norms).
Vampires, no matter what their background, would go through massive changes,
not just physically, but psychologically as well.  Nick, at the very least, was
told that the rules no longer applied to him, he was above human laws and
concerns, and that he had all eternity to spend enjoying himself.  He was in
the fairly constant company of people who believed and acted that way, and (as
has been pointed out) he's a rather suggestable person.  I'm not UFish,
personally, I'm just saying that ideas and assumptions about sexuality (both in
terms of what is proper and what is yours) could be changed over time with the
right influences.
You may disagree with this, many people do.  But before you start agruing that
sexuality is a fixed trait that comes with a person, think of how many other
psychological traits (neat-nik, messy, talker, shy) are also fixed 'personality
traits', and yet can be changed with time and influence.

My humble... actually, I think this is about a nickle's worth, judging on
length.

                         -Megan


Libratsie@a....... wrote:
For those looking into the origins of the vampire, in this case FK character,
for their sexual behavior today, we should remember that attitudes and
behaviors can, and do, change. I **PERSONALLY** don't think sexuality does,

"Eternal nights too short,
How quickly melt away,
With all the love we shared once,
Forever in a Day."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:46:23 -0500
From:    Becky Hinson <bayoubecky@c.......>
Subject: Re: Cow Blood

----- Original Message -----
From: "DLPH" <DLPH@c.......>


> Since Nick drank so much cow blood
> did he get flashes of being in out a field?
> Did he have a sudden urge to just sit & chew his cud?
> Did he get nervous driving by Burger King?
> Did he have a deep fear of being cut up into pattys?

I'm sorry, but I'm seeing a fic popping up somewhere, sometime soon....

And going off of this one, if Nick felt generous and was sharing blood with
Lacroix for whatever reason, does that mean Lacroix will get the same fears
and urges?

Oh my, I think I'm getting a headache.

:)
~Cousin Becky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:57:09 -0400
From:    Emily Lacey <laceyem@b.......>
Subject: Re: Cow Blood

>Since Nick drank so much cow blood
>did he get flashes of being in out a field?

Maybe this explains his intense desire to be out in the sun.
--
Emily Lacey
laceyem@b.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:47:16 -0500
From:    "J. L Dupre'" <jld2649@l.......>
Subject: Re: Reply

Not gross by the social mores of the General's time period.  And no matter
what, a relationship with Nick is not incest.  Not blood related.  Not truly
father and Son, maybe sometime friends, certainly not brothers.  As for the
blood related thing i.e. genetics, the General has already laid down his
feeling for that with Diva.

Always;

J. L. Dupre'

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:40:06 -0500
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@c.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

> Nicola De Brabant wrote:

> If Nick and LaCroix did have a relationship it could have been because
> LaCroix convinced Nick that it was alright, or because Nick
> was depressed (which was partly was he aloud himsellf to be brought across)
> so couldn't he have also ignored his morals about homosexual relationships?

I think it's a mistake to see vampire/vampire relationships as sexual
in the human sense. What is important is the sharing of blood; any
human-style sexual activity would be icing on the cake, so to speak.
My theory on this is that true intimacy is the bloodsharing, and that
a physical act is a pale imitation. In this situation, the sex of the
partners is not important---blood knows no gender.

In the case of Nick and LC, I think of them both as primarily
heterosexual as humans (although, as Mary Combs pointed out, it wasn't
unusual for a male Roman to take advantage of available boys, and as
for Nick, soldiers on long campaigns do not always have access to camp
followers; it's not unusual for otherwise heterosexual men to "relieve
the tension" with each other, although the reality is not acknowledged
as having any significance). But as vampires, I'm sure that, as part
of their  relationship, LC and Nick have shared blood on numerous
occasions. I also think that the sharing would devolve into a more
human physical sharing every so often.

However, given Nick's relationship with LC (essentially a power
struggle between two unequal parties) I think he'd be very reluctant
to give to his master his essense, to open himself up on that
intimate, psychic level that a sharing of blood involves, however
pleasurable it is at the time. I think LC would use his considerable
control, coercion, and plain ol' mindgames to force Nick into
positions where he was powerless to refuse. And, knowing Nick's
infinite capacity for self-damnation, I bet he enjoys the whole
episode, and then hates himself (and Lacroix) the next day---not
because he had sex with another man/vampire, but because he submitted,
and then enjoyed it despite himself.

I think LC would instigate these acts, not out of pure love, but as a
means of keeping Nick under his control and of not allowing him any
true independence.

It's all mind games with those two, you know. :-)

Anyway, that's my take on the UF relationship. I have a hard time
buying the lovely-dovey scenario, but the coercion one? Oh, yes.

Nancy Kaminski

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:46:28 -0400
From:    Katherine DeVries <banshee1@t.......>
Subject: Re: Cow Blood

AAAHHHH! I spit soda on my monitor! Where was the spew warning!?!?
as always,
Kat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emily Lacey"
> Maybe this explains his intense desire to be out in the sun.
> --

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:43:03 -0700
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: Cow blood+medieval attitudes

You know, this got me to thinking about all my
medieval history. (Did I mention I was a Medieval
Studies Minor? :)

Granted, we know he was drinking animal blood as the
equivalent to a "vampire vegetarian" for social
consciousness. HOWEVER, the Medieval Catholic church
also used self flagellation and denial as a way to
expiate one's sins. I'm wondering if Nick's medieval
beliefs could somehow translate into the whole
thing...hmmm...could be a great fic! :)

--- Megan Hull <mistrydder@y.......> wrote:

  Probably only marginally nutritional.  Would
> Nick be able to 'see' or 'read' anything in cow's
> blood, or would it be too different for that?
>
>              -Megan
>

=====
http://www.fkvoyage.com/fkfanfic/fife_kristen/
"When a half-breed vampire becomes the object of Mafia revenge, the ensuing
power struggle pits immortal and mortal families against one another." -THICKER
THAN WATER
"The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:27:31 -0700
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: Vampiric Relationships

Fascinating thread, all.

I was poking around on Nigel's site and reading some
of the transcripts this week and in one chat he
mentioned very specifically the sexual overtones to
Nick and LaCroix's relationship.

I can't get to the site right now, but I take that to
mean that the writers at least intimated to it. I will
continue to search as it was a fascinating chat.

And, as a trained Classicist, I will vouch for the
societal acceptance in Ancient times of homosexuality,
although the Greeks were much more societally inclined
toward it.

Personally, I believe that as an entity evolves the
boundaries between sexual orientation blur. And,
honestly, the whole blood sharing discussion in
Francesca leads me to believe that it does encompass
sexuality and sensuality, and in the FK world vampire
lusts transcend sexual orientation.

Just my $.02

=====
http://www.fkvoyage.com/fkfanfic/fife_kristen/
"When a half-breed vampire becomes the object of Mafia revenge, the ensuing
power struggle pits immortal and mortal families against one another." -THICKER
THAN WATER
"The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:33:52 -0700
From:    Kristen Fife <fenix23fyre@y.......>
Subject: The Goth community in general

One thing I thought to mention as I read the thread on
FK orientation.

The vampires in the FK universe tend to occupy the
Gothic/Industrial niche (as evidenced by the music,
dress and the interior of the Raven.) As a fringe
member of my local Goth/industrial community, I can
tell you that there is a lot more bisexuality in the
community as a whole (both male AND female).

Assuming the writers of FK did some research, this is
something that would be known to them. The BD/SM
community has a prevalent presence in the alternative
music community, and anyone writing about that world
would probably have at least some knowledge of the
culture they are portraying. I'm happy to take this
discussion offline as it is something I am exploring
in my own vampire fiction (non-FK novel.)

=====
http://www.fkvoyage.com/fkfanfic/fife_kristen/
"When a half-breed vampire becomes the object of Mafia revenge, the ensuing
power struggle pits immortal and mortal families against one another." -THICKER
THAN WATER
"The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Sep 2004 03:10:59 -0500
From:    "Stone, Barbara" <STONEB@g.......>
Subject: Screed's white lab rat

Libs wrote:  After all, Screed dropped the ordinary sewer rat for a nice, shiny
pretty white rat, the remains of which now reside in my nightstand drawer
(well, where else can I keep it? <g>)


Under the kitchen sink next to the coffee?

B. Stone

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:22:02 +0100
From:    Tracy Gooding <t.gooding@u.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

My goodness, this list is lively lately!  This is a good thing.  There are too
many people to quote, but here's my 2 pence Sterling into the mix:

I have often thought that, as the FK vampires can live vicariously through the
blood of their victims, there's no reason why they should not also take on some
of the same desires, and that includes sexual tastes.  Quite apart from this
giving homosexual overtones, it could make them attracted to a completely new
personality type.  My take is that they would relish the experience, or else
they'd check the sexual history of the victim before feeding...

On a different note, how much of Schanke did Nick get to know since he was
given a blood transfusion by him at the end of Dark Knight, or did the garlic
get in the way ;) ?  (For fans of The Dead Zone, there was a good ep based
around a similar premiss).  I wonder if it gave Nick a greater appreciation of
Schanke's motivations.  I also wonder what would have happened if any
information had travelled in the other direction at some time, and what Schanke
would have made of Nick's motivations?

On yet another note (I'm building up a riff, here) I have a number of male
friends whose relationships with each other are, to coin a phrase, closer than
lovers.  Although none of them would describe themselves as gay, they have
affectionate, physical and very intense relationships, including sleeping with
each other (and I mean that literally, not euphemistically), which confuses
people outside their circle.  Perhaps men are more free to express their
emotions than in times past, and not just in England.  If even in my lifetime
attitudes have changed that much, I can imagine how being raised in different
times would make such behaviour anathema to someone, or perhaps utterly
liberating.

Tracy G

---------------------------------------
I'm tired of feeding my soul to people who'll never know
Just how purposeless and empty they've grown.
Muse: Map of Your Head


------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:26:51 -0700
From:    Amanda Berendt <debrabant_foundation@y.......>
Subject: Nick & LC's relationship

Kind of weird, but I had just read a story last weekend that dealt
with their relationship and a possible reason why Nick would consent
(for lack of a better word) to *be* with Lacroix.
I don't want to spoil that idea, it is kind of an interesting twist
in the story.
The story is called "A Friend in the Nightcrawler" by L. Zephania.
It is an adult story and can be found on the JADFE site.  I got it
off of someone else's reccomendation site.  I can find the link if
anyone wants it.

I just thought it was interesting that I read this story last weekend
and then the discussion about their relationship comes up on the
list.

-Amanda

=====
"This thing... man... whatever it is...evil may have created it, left its mark
on it, but evil does not rule it.  So I cannot kill it."  - Gabriel Van Helsing
http://www.darksideoftheglass.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:23:26 -0400
From:    Julia Kocich <jkocich@g.......>
Subject: Re: Admin: FK vampires and sexual relationships

First of all, if this post drags the entire thread along with it,
aaargh, and deepest, groveling apologies.

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:24:54 -0500, Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......> wrote:
>   We're a family and that means taking care with each other.


You mean, kinda like Lacroix and Nick and Janette, do, right <innocent
blinking>?

> We do have minors reading the list.  It just means we don't make value
> judgements on Forkni-l.

Isn't it interesting that certain ideas about the personal
relationships among consenting vampires, some of whom routinely drink
human blood and less routinely kill humans, can upset some people far
more than the fact that, well, we're their preferred food source?

(A long time ago, I and others worked on a Unnamed Faction FAQ, which,
of course, was the UF Un-FAQ <g>.In a PG-13 way, it tried to explain
at least one point of view about the complex relationship between
Lacroix and Nick.)

Best wishes,
Julia K.
UF list cobra and proud citizen of New Amsterdam/Baghdad-on-the-Hudson

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:36:06 -0600
From:    Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: Vampiric relationships

> Though I seem to remember that in Francesca (sp?), it was
> implied that the effect (like gaining the ability to play the violin) would
> dissipate after a few
> hours.  It's been a long time since I watched that episode

As it happens, I watched it last night. Nick said the ability to play music
would dissipate in a couple of hours.

Your humble servant,
Angela Gottfred

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 1 Sep 2004 to 2 Sep 2004 - Special issue (#2004-242)
*****************************************************************************