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FORKNI-L Digest - 10 Nov 2002 to 11 Nov 2002 (#2002-330)

Mon, 11 Nov 2002

There are 21 messages totalling 528 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. human factor (4)
  2. A few thoughts-Here's a couple more (8)
  3. 1st season Canadian
  4. FK Vampires feeling pain (3)
  5. 1995/96 (was: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more)
  6. Jim Parriott and MDs
  7. Lacroix as a neighbor (3)

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Date:    Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:12:20 -0500
From:    "marykroll@i......." <marykroll@i.......>
Subject: Re: human factor

I have to dissent.  I don't think Nick brought her back.  She had attained what
he was striving for and he knew death was a consequence of being mortal.  I
base my opinion mostly on LaCroix saying he had lost a daughter but gained a
son, e.g. Jannette's death brought Nick closer to him.
Mary Kroll
http://wildheaven.theshoppe.com
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -George Carlin

>4. What's the consensus on Human Factor....did Nick
>bring Janette back over
Yeah, that's what I think ..
>or did the trauma of the fire
>reverse what the trauma of the shooting did, ie
>turning her back into a vampire?
But I like your theory too.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:33:01 -0800
From:    Ith <ithildin@o.......>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

At 08:06 PM 11/09/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> > 4. What's the consensus on Human Factor....did Nick
> > bring Janette back over

Yes he did do the deed :). I remember at the time it aired, it turned out
some people never saw the tag as their stations ran ads over it. So, at the
time, there was quite a bit of confusion. Not long after, I was at a con
that Nigel Bennett was a guest at. One of the questions at the Q&A was
about Janette at the end of Human Factor. He said that it was a surprise to
the people on the show that there was any doubt that Janette was still
alive at the end as it was intended to be very clear that she was. But due
to some people missing the tag and (if I remember) some editing choices, it
had not been as crystal clear as they had intended. So, thankfully, Janette
is still "alive" and kicking!


  -=- Ith= ithildin@o....... = http://ondragonswing.com/dragonstone
  -=- Vampires, Floth demons.... Do you know what is
  -=- really, really evil? Tequila. ~ Cordelia ~ 'Angel'
  -=- Bloodties Repository http://ondragonswing.com/tales/bloodties.htm
  -=- Star Trek:The First Generation http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ST_FirstGen

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:01:16 -0000
From:    Kezia Hepden <keziahepden@h.......>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

Melinda Morgan wrote:

> 1. If vampires aren't supposed to feel pain (except
> for that psychological pain Nick feels) why did
> LaCroix feel the pain of the fire? Because it's one of
> the things that can kill them?

Melinda - why do you think FK vampires can't feel pain?  I can't recall any
incident that says they don't feel pain, and plenty that say they do.  The
first two that spring to mind is Nick's reaction to the various crosses,
especially in FIHS, and when he held his finger out into the sunlight in the
loft (I think it was the Erica episode?) it was clearly painful for him to
do so.

Granted, they may have a greater capacity to endure pain, but that may well
be due to one or (most likely) both of the following theories:

1)  If you know you can survive a particular pain, you can better endure it
by the old 'mind over matter' principle.  (Papercuts *really* hurt, but
telling yourself that nobody ever died of a simple papercut helps psyche you
up to overcome the agony.)

2)  Pain seems to bring out the vampire, which in turn may well trigger
endorphins, etc., that allow a vampire to both heal much faster and ignore
the pain in order to deal  with the cause - and, if necessary, sink their
fangs into said cause.  <VECG>

Cousin Kezia

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:27:15 EST
From:    Evelyn Duncan <BrandyKitt@a.......>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

In a message dated 11/10/2002 5:20:59 PM Central Standard Time,
keziahepden@h....... writes:

<<
Melinda - why do you think FK vampires can't feel pain?  I can't recall any
incident that says they don't feel pain, and plenty that say they do.
>>

There was a scene in which Nat is taking a bullet out of Nick and he
reacts.  One of them (it's been so long, and I don't get Sci_fi) remarks
that she's found a human nerve in him.  They act as if it's remarkable
that he actually feels some pain.

Evelyn Duncan
brandykitt@a.......

Vaya con queso.
  -- Cliff Huxtable

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:46:43 -0700
From:    Angela Gottfred <agottfre@t.......>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

> There was a scene in which Nat is taking a bullet out of Nick and he
> reacts.  One of them (it's been so long, and I don't get Sci_fi) remarks
> that she's found a human nerve in him.  They act as if it's remarkable
> that he actually feels some pain.
That's Natalie from _Father Figure_, a 1st season ep. I'd say it was
something that wouldn't ordinarily be very painful to a vampire,
compared to, say, sunlight or fire.

Your very humble & most obedient servant,
Ligeia

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:24:40 -0800
From:    Aurora Rose <aurorarose58@y.......>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

New to the list, actually...renew to the list. I used to be a member way way
back when it first started, lurker though I was. I've been recently searching
for some of the old people, I was quite surprised to see that this list was
still active.  Anyone still here that used to be here back in 1995, 1996?



Aurora Rose

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 05:04:18 -0800
From:    Amanda Berendt <debrabant_foundation@y.......>
Subject: 1st season Canadian

Hi-
I have a request - anyone who has good copies of the 1st season
Canadian versions, could you please contact me off list?
Mine have been sucked into the black hole of home redecoration.  I am
kicking myself.  I will gladly pay all dubbing costs or give a
donation to whatever charity.
Thanks so much!
-Amanda

=====
"Dreams are portable - I carry mine with me"
http://operacellar.tripod.com/phantomslair.html

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:21:55 -0700
From:    Laudon1965 <Laudon1965@c.......>
Subject: Re: human factor

----- Original Message -----
From: <marykroll@i.......>


> I don't think Nick brought her back. <snip>   I base
>my opinion mostly on LaCroix saying he had lost a
>daughter but gained a son, e.g. Jannette's death
>brought Nick closer to him.

I thought we were to assume that it was Janette who
killed the baddies whose bodies were found at the
end of the episode, that Nick had brought her back
accross.  I thought that LaCroix meant that he had
lost Janette as his offspring, that she had become
mortal, and was now Nick's progeny, and that it
was Nick's decision to make Janette a vampire again
that had brought him back into the vampire fold and
"regained" him as a son for LaCroix again.

MHO, YMMV,
Laurie of the Isles
"This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force." - Dorothy Parker

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:27:44 -0700
From:    Laudon1965 <Laudon1965@c.......>
Subject: Re: FK Vampires feeling pain

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evelyn Duncan" <BrandyKitt@a.......>

> There was a scene in which Nat is taking a bullet out
> of Nick and he reacts.  One of them remarks that
>she's found a human nerve in him.  They act as if it's
>remarkable that he actually feels some pain.

But then we also have LC in DK2 saying "That hurt!"
when Nick burns his face.  The bullet scene may have
been one of several instances where the writers didn't consult what had gone
before, and the result was
inconsistency.  Even Nigel Bennett said at Aggie Con
a few years ago that continuity was not the show's
strong suit.

Laurie of the Isles

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:39:09 EST
From:    Evelyn Duncan <BrandyKitt@a.......>
Subject: Re: FK Vampires feeling pain

In a message dated 11/11/2002 7:24:18 AM Central Standard Time,
Laudon1965@c....... writes:

<<
But then we also have LC in DK2 saying "That hurt!"
when Nick burns his face.  The bullet scene may have
been one of several instances where the writers didn't consult what had gone
before, and the result was
inconsistency.
>>

Or maybe there's pain that they can feel and pain that they can't;
maybe it depends on the source.  Maybe fire, being an element,
can cause pain; while a bullet is material.

Evelyn Duncan
brandykitt@a.......

Vaya con queso.
  -- Cliff Huxtable

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:58:14 -0800
From:    Ith <ithildin@o.......>
Subject: 1995/96 (was: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more)

At 12:24 PM 11/10/2002 -0800, Aurora Rose wrote:
>New to the list, actually...renew to the list. I used to be a member way
>way back when it first started, lurker though I was. I've been recently
>searching for some of the old people, I was quite surprised to see that
>this list was still active.  Anyone still here that used to be here back
>in 1995, 1996?

I know there's a few of us still here. Me for one (1996)


   -=- Ith= ithildin@o....... = http://ondragonswing.com/dragonstone
   -=- Vampires, Floth demons.... Do you know what is
   -=- really, really evil? Tequila. ~ Cordelia ~ 'Angel'
   -=- Bloodties Repository http://ondragonswing.com/tales/bloodties.htm
   -=- Star Trek:The First Generation
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ST_FirstGen

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:03:05 -0500
From:    Bonnie Rutledge <llamababe@c.......>
Subject: Re: human factor

Laurie wrote:
<snip>I thought we were to assume that it was Janette who killed the
baddies whose bodies were found at the end of the episode, that Nick
had brought her back across...<snip>and that it was Nick's decision to
make Janette a vampire again that had brought him back into the
vampire fold and "regained" him as a son for LaCroix again.<snip>

Well, it's been established since the initial airing that this
interpretation is what we were meant to glean from the events of
'Human Factor.' I'm one of the people who thought Nick let Janette die
when this episode first aired, and that he was the one that killed the
baddies at the end, that revenge inspiring LaCroix's comment. So, even
with the tag scene intact, I did not believe Janette had survived.

I've written both interpretations in fanfic, but frankly, I prefer the
scenario where Nick allows Janette to die. This isn't out of any
dislike for Janette, but the fact that, with either choice, her death
or survival impacts Nick's moral picture. I have a much harder time
swallowing Nick taking Janette's mortality when mortality is supposed
to be his great quest in the show. I really don't want to believe he
could take that, even in the heat of the moment. To me, that would be
a terrible character failing, and I would have a difficult time
maintaining a heroic picture of Nick in light of it. I am far more
comfortable as a viewer with the revenge scenario, that Nick killed
the baddies in his grief, experienced guilt facing Nat afterwards at
the crime scene, yet was drawn to LaCroix to share the loss of
Janette. Historically, it hasn't  been the majority opinion, but like
Mulder with aliens, I want to believe. :D

<waves>

********************************************************
Bonnie Rutledge<------------Omnifemale Llama!
Lily's Cool Aunt!... llamababe@c.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:03:55 -0800
From:    Ith <ithildin@o.......>
Subject: Re: human factor

At 06:21 AM 11/11/2002 -0700, Laudon1965 wrote:
>  I thought that LaCroix meant that he had
>lost Janette as his offspring, that she had become
>mortal, and was now Nick's progeny, and that it
>was Nick's decision to make Janette a vampire again
>that had brought him back into the vampire fold and
>"regained" him as a son for LaCroix again.

Glad I read all my email first, because your post just saved me typing in
the same thing <g>

LaCroix got his son back and got a granddaughter out of the deal I'd say.


   -=- Ith= ithildin@o....... = http://ondragonswing.com/dragonstone
   -=- Vampires, Floth demons.... Do you know what is
   -=- really, really evil? Tequila. ~ Cordelia ~ 'Angel'
   -=- Bloodties Repository http://ondragonswing.com/tales/bloodties.htm
   -=- Star Trek:The First Generation
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ST_FirstGen

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:07:48 EST
From:    J L Kerr <Jlkerr1228@a.......>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

I think I joined FKFIC in 1996 and this list in 1997. Wow -- that was a long
time ago!


~ J L Kerr ~
jlkerr1228@a.......
members.aol.com/jlkerr1228/



In a message dated 11/10/02 11:53:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
aurorarose58@y....... writes:

> New to the list, actually...renew to the list. I used to be a member way way
> back when it first started, lurker though I was. I've been recently
> searching for some of the old people, I was quite surprised to see that
> this list was still active.  Anyone still here that used to be here back in
> 1995, 1996?
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:11:23 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

In a message dated 11/11/02 9:08:39 AM Central Standard Time,
Jlkerr1228@a....... writes:

<< I think I joined FKFIC in 1996 and this list in 1997. Wow -- that was a
long time ago! >>
I joined FKFIC right after the show was cancelled, but believe it or not,
didn't log onto FORKNI-L until after Bridging the Knight.

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:16:15 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Re: FK Vampires feeling pain

Just as a point of interest, according to Ger in an interview, "that hurt!
when Nick singes LC's face was an ad lib on Nigel's part.

Personally, I like the idea that fire hurts because it's potentially fatal to
vampires. The basic purpose of pain is to warn the person who feels it to stop
whatever the cause of the pain is.

If a vampire couldn't feel the pain when burned,  say, on the back, he'd
probably be killed before he could put out the fire. (Sudden mental image of a
class of new vampires practinging "stop, drop, and roll." <g>)

McLisa
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:08:37 -0500
From:    Annmarie <wench@o.......>
Subject: Jim Parriott and MDs

On ABC, MDs which has been removed from the sweep schedule, but is
scheduled to return in early December, has signed James Parriott as its new
showrunner and co-exec prod along side Gary Tieche and Marc Platt.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:42:45 EST
From:    Susankenn@a.......
Subject: Re: A few thoughts-Here's a couple more

Hi

I joined in 10/95.

Name Sue Honig

Welcome back
sue

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:47:04 EST
From:    Judith Lieberman <JudithL21@a.......>
Subject: Lacroix as a neighbor

I just recieved a neighborhood e-mail and found out that one of them uses her
own name which happens to be LaCroix.  The mind reels. JudyL

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:53:51 EST
From:    Becky Hinson <bbhinson3@a.......>
Subject: Re: Lacroix as a neighbor

In a message dated 11/11/02 3:47:58 PM Central Standard Time,
JudithL21@a....... writes:


> I just recieved a neighborhood e-mail and found out that one of them uses her
> own name which happens to be LaCroix.  The mind reels. JudyL
>

On a parenting bulletin board I post on, they collected everyone's names to
send Christmas cards to them.

We have a LaCroix who lives in Florida, and a Vachon who lives in Ontario.

Go figure.

~Cousin Becky
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however
improbable, must be the truth."
                                                           --S. Holmes

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:58:50 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: Lacroix as a neighbor

In a message dated 11/11/02 3:54:44 PM Central Standard Time,
bbhinson3@a....... writes:

<< We have a LaCroix who lives in Florida, and a Vachon who lives in Ontario.
>>
I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you get a Screed...

THen I'd really raise an eyebrow.<g>

You know, I think LaCroix would probably make a pretty good neighbor even for
a vampire. I wouldn't think he'd eat a neighbor as it'd been too suspicious,
and he's intimidating enough to scare a late-night prowler with a mere glance.

Plus, he's much too old and powerful to ever want to borrow the lawn mower.

Libs

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 10 Nov 2002 to 11 Nov 2002 (#2002-330)
***************************************************************



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