Home Page How I Found Forever Knight Forkni-L Archives Main Page Forkni-L Earlier Years
My Forever Knight Fanfiction Links E-Mail Me

FORKNI-L

FORKNI-L Digest - 28 Oct 2001 to 29 Oct 2001 (#2001-328)

Mon, 29 Oct 2001

There are 21 messages totalling 592 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Religious symbols --unconsecrating churches, etc. (2)
  2. Religious symbols other than crosses (2)
  3. Birth Announcement!!!!!   Welcome Andy!!!!!  :-)  :-) (2)
  4. religious symbols and vampires
  5. YKYBWTMFKW...
  6. FK hair experiments (was Re: Veering sharply back sorta-on
     topic)
  7. Jen, Queen of Inquiries, Inquires (2)
  8. war (2)
  9. Vachon's Hand
 10. Cemetaries
 11. Care2 E-Card from Lady Hawke (2)
 12. FK Computer games and Lemmings
 13. LaCroix is hiding! (or deserves one.) (3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 01:50:43 EST
From:    CD Curley <Gerwynfan@a.......>
Subject: Re: Religious symbols --unconsecrating churches, etc.

<<Does a church go thru a ceremony to become
consecrated and therefore a ceremony to become
unconsecrated?  And what about cemetarys?>>

          -- Yes.  In the Catholic Church, at least, we have a ritual for
everything, of course.  There is a ritual for consecrating and unconsecrating
buildings used as churches.  I know they consecrate cemetaries but never
heard of one being unconsecrated since it's rare for cemetaries to be moved.
In the "old days" the cemetaries were next to the church building but I
suppose in the new times they may have had to move Catholic cemetaries off
site, in which case, the ground would be consectrated in a formal ritual.  As
another example, when the host or communion wafer is dropped on the floor,
there is a ritual that must be performed over the site to cleanse it.

Other religions, I don't know, but one wonders at all these "storefront"
churches and what is needed to transform, say, an old dimestore to a church.

But for vampires and vampire myths, they grew up at the height of the
Catholic church so I'd go with more of the Catholic beliefs, rituals, and
symbols.

However, I do remember seeing in a vampire/horror spoof movie (don't remember
the name or much about it) where a Jewish lad pulls out a Star of David to
repel a vampire.

Catherine

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:52:25 -0800
From:    Cloud <clouddancer@h.......>
Subject: Re: Religious symbols other than crosses

> phylis sullivan wrote:
> I don't recall there ever being any episodes in FK that involved
> cemetaries, but aren't they consecrated as well?

How about Black Buddha II? When Nick & Nat put flowers on Schanke's
grave. Another episode might be Fever. Where Nat's friend was buried.

--
Cloud         <clouddancer@h.......>
Vaquera, Incarnate, Lonely Heart & closet Night Haven
http://www.geocities.com/cloudworley/clouddancer.html

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 02:21:19 EST
From:    KnightLaw1@a.......
Subject: Re: Birth Announcement!!!!!   Welcome Andy!!!!!  :-)  :-)

Congrats Will!

I am glad to hear you are well!  Hug the little guy for me.


Peace,
Maria
KnightLaw1@a.......
"You must understand the whole of life, not just one little part of it.  That
is why you must read, that is why you must look at the skies, that is why you
must sing, and dance, and write poems, and suffer, and understand, for all
that is life."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 01:55:23 -0600
From:    Moemcal <moemcal@c.......>
Subject: religious symbols and vampires

One of the problems I saw in FK was that the canon on religious symbols and
vampires was biased towards Judeo- Christianity, except in " Blackwing".

For example, there was one scene where Nick is on the floor in his loft
examining Tarot cards. All good and well but the BACK of the cards as shown to
the camera showed the upright circled pentagram of Wicca. IOW this Tarot deck
is the Witch's Tarot, while the front of the cards was a more medieval design,
another deck entirely. IOW a religious symbol. Also the jade cups in "Dark
Knight" were ceremonial, religious objects.

 Since part of the whole FK mythos was Nick struggling to regain his mortality
( IMO he never lost his humanity) and by extension  a struggle between good and
evil, there had to be limits on vampires, thus the cross aversion. I thought
that since " Black Wing", which included two ceremonial daggers, that the
possible scenario for their aversion is twofold. One, the usual psychology
( basic suggestion) and the other covers the religious objects. What Nick and
co. do not see as religious symbols ( such as the pentagram) becomes something
they ignore as harming them. If the religious symbols were OBJECTIVELY harmful,
then in ALL cases when the symbols are encountered ( whether the Sangroid
believes it or not), there would be adverse effects. Nick in a few scenes shows
that holding a crucifix in a few times when he does not dwell on it, does not
immediately harm him.

The second possibility is that the object ( symbol, etc.) has been charged by
the believers. And vampires, with semi-supernatural abilities, are sensitive to
this charge. It explains Nicks response to touching the knives and his response
in the jade cups. The cups, being underground for a long time ( according to
Pagan/Wiccan lore), were discharged of their ceremonial energy by the ground.
To some Wiccans, one of the methods of cleansing a new item for ceremonial use
is to bury it in the ground for awhile.

 It would be interesting if there were any fanfic that dealt with other faiths,
including Wicca. I had the idea that anyone with some time on their hands and
a dedication that would rival a saint could cross index various fanfic on the
web according to certain elements.

 Happy Halloween and Merry Samhain to  one and all!!

Moe
FoD, Nat- Packer, Dark Knightie, FKPagan and PROUD GWDFC member!
 'A vampire cop? REALLY?"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 02:20:09 -0600
From:    Eve Dutton <umdutto3@c.......>
Subject: YKYBWTMFKW...

Yes, another one from work... tonight we were calling <unspecified state
apparently full of people who hate telephone surveyors> and I got onto an
answering machine. The machine said, "You've reached Nick and Natalie," and
I thought, so that's where they ended up...


Eve
umdutto3@c.......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The opinions contained herein are mine, not those of the University of
Manitoba. It is the opinion of the University of Manitoba that I should be
writing my thesis.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:44:09 -0800
From:    Emily <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: Re: FK hair experiments (was Re: Veering sharply back sorta-on
         topic)

Hee hee...
Hmm, I can see a Halloween fic here.  Various FK characters dye other
characters hair for a prank.  Too bad there's not still a war!

Emily

--- knightfangs <knightfangs@h.......> wrote:
> Somebody dying one's hair while one's asleep.....hmm...I'm having
> visions too....
> of War XI.  What about you Emily?  lol

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:49:25 -0500
From:    Tim Phillips <TIMP@d.......>
Subject: Re: Jen, Queen of Inquiries, Inquires

> 5) Would plastic surgery do a vampire any good?  Say that in several hundred
> years, people all have teeny-tiny ears and those with big ears are horribly
> persecuted.  Could a vampire get an ear-reducing operation?  Or, in a
> scenario where the sizes are reversed, could a vampire get an ear-enlarging
> operation?  ('Course, being so different already, they may not care....)
        It isn't a perfect answer, but there is a scene in the 1st season -
 I think - where Janette is getting a tattoo on her shoulder in the
Raven.  Nick asks why she is bothering, it will just disappear in a
day?
        Based upon this, one could assume that any "damage" done to
a vampire will eventually heal so they are returned to their "original
state".
        Balancing this is the fact that in the 1st episode of season 3,
Vachon is digging through the wreakage of the plane crash trying
to find his missing hand.   As I remember, he had no regrown that
hand yet.  Maybe he needed the hand in order to reattach it so he
would heal?  Maybe, he was trying to remove any evidence of his
presence onboard the plane?
        I don't think there is anything absolutely conclusive.
        Personally, I think a vampire would heal back to the
preoperative condition
                Tim
 Tim Phillips
 timp@d.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:48:25 +1300
From:    Tracey Rayner <trayner@p.......>
Subject: war

Just wondering with all the talk of hair dying if there are any plans for
the next war?  I really enjoyed war 11, and am hoping to help bake some more
jalapeno chocolate cookies in the next one :)

going OT here but thanks to everyone who has wished me luck for exams, I had
my first one today and it went extremely well.  My lecturer must have been
in a very good mood when he wrote it :)
ciao
Trace
_________________________
"I am what I am, and I don't think Betty Ford takes Forever Knight addicts"
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/trayner/FKsite2.html
trayner@p.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:21:40 -0500
From:    Portia <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Vachon's Hand

Perhaps Vachon would have healed w/out recovering the lost hand, but perhaps
it would have taken a long time (even a week or two without your hand can be
inconvenient), and it was just more expedient to recover the lost one.
Maybe the re-growing hand would have been too strange in appearance as it
developed (really tiny or strangely "deformed" in the view of mortals or
something) and would have drawn unwanted attention to himself -- something a
vampire would avoid.  I think not leaving evidence might also have been a
factor, but I suspect the hand would not have existed for long -- turning to
dust -- but that also would leave questions in the minds of mortals if they
noticed it.

Portia

----- Original Message -----
>         Balancing this is the fact that in the 1st episode of season 3,
> Vachon is digging through the wreakage of the plane crash trying
> to find his missing hand.   As I remember, he had no regrown that
> hand yet.  Maybe he needed the hand in order to reattach it so he
> would heal?  Maybe, he was trying to remove any evidence of his
> presence onboard the plane?
>  Tim Phillips

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:29:33 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: war

In a message dated 10/29/01 5:54:22 AM Central Standard Time,
trayner@p....... writes:

<< Just wondering with all the talk of hair dying if there are any plans for
 the next war? >>
Wars are usually held *at least* a year a part, so it will be a well. If they
are too close together, the list ham(p)sters go on strike meaning h'all the
wee lil' ratsies 'ave to take o'er ... and if you think fan wars are bad!!!!
hehehehe

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:28:42 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Cemetaries

Not all cemetaries are consecrated. The commercial variety where most modern
burials take place in North America aren't. Most Protestant denominations don't
require burial in consecrated ground. Many dedicate rather than consecrating
churches. Often a commercial cemetary will have a Catholic section which is
consecrated by the Catholic Church.

Actually, we don't have any evidence I can remember of consecrated ground being
a problem for FK vampires. Nick's problem with going into the church in For I
Have Sinned could be explained by the presence of crosses and/or religious
statues. He seemed to have no trouble hiding in a confessional.

McLisa
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:35:09 -0800
From:    Lady Ariake <lady_ariake@y.......>
Subject: Re: Religious symbols --unconsecrating churches, etc.

--- CD Curley <Gerwynfan@a.......> wrote:
>
> But for vampires and vampire myths, they grew up at the height of the
> Catholic church so I'd go with more of the Catholic beliefs, rituals, and
> symbols.

Hope I'm not repeating anyone here as I haven't read
all my mail, but...REAL vampire legends predate
Catholicism/Orthodoxy.  (And the countries from which
most of the legends come from usually have a bigger
Moslem majority than Protestant Christian.)  Much of
the traditional lore can be traced to pre-Christian
Slavic nature worship, and the concept of a
distinction between the underword (below ground) the
earth, and the sky.  I'd like to point out that in
traditional lore, there is no mention of the cross or
"Holy Water" specificially used as a vampire
apatropaic.  Water *can* be used; boiling in oil,
water, or wine can prevent a vampire from rising.
Running water and bridges have been mentioned as
well--this may be cross-contamination from witchcraft
ledgends.  Most cases of vampirism were thought to
stem from a mistake made at some point in the
furnerary process--a body wasn't washed, it wasn't
dressed properly (my theory on the famous case of
Peter Plagoivicz is that he came back demanding his
shoes because being buried barefoot meant that proper
care hadn't been taken during his funeral rites.)
People would (and in some places still do) go through
complicated burial rites designed to trick the corpse
of one they susupected might rise as a vampire,
ranging from digging holes under the door, carrying
the body out backwards, knocking new holes in the
wall--all to prevent the vampire from finding their
way home.  Burial at a crossroads is another good
example--it doesn't work because the roads are shaped
like a cross, it works because the vampire is assumed
to be dumb enough he'll get lost and wander off down
the road, presumably becoming some other village's
problem.  Traditional vampires weren't particularly
attractive or intelligent.  (In fact, given some of
the apatropaics, they were downright stupid.)

The cross, the Holy Water, the transformational
abilities, all are Stoker's inventions, in some case
altered from traditional lore and in other made up
whole cloth.  They mostly have to do with the
dichotomy in "Dracula-" the triumph of the civilised
West (personified by the almost wooden English
characters) and the wild, elemental East (personified
by the passionate, animalistic Dracula.)  I've never
bought into the cross business myself.  The only way I
could see it working would be if it were made of
metal--sometimes just a piece of metal is enough to
prevent the vampire from rising from the coffin.

And would you believe, I had an entire college course
in vampires.

=====
"If you're going to have delusions of grandeur, go for the really satisfying
ones."  (Marcus Cole, Anla'shok, or my life motto.)

"...In all things trust the Weyrfolk, for their cause is just and true."

http://www.geocities.com/northrangesweyr

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:08:35 -0000
From:    Lady Hawke <darkknightie@y.......>
Subject: Care2 E-Card from Lady Hawke

*****************************

Lady Hawke has sent you a Care2 e-card!

To view your card, simply click on this address:

http://www.care2.com/ecards/p/3301-5514-11387-5483

Sending Care2 e-cards and e-mail helps support Environmental Defense,
Defenders of Wildlife, and the National Wildlife Federation !

*****************************



The card was sent on October 29, 2001.
It will be available online for 14 days.

http://www.care2.com - The Best of the Internet with a Green Twist!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:36:58 EST
From:    Judith Lieberman <JudithL21@a.......>
Subject: Re: Birth Announcement!!!!!   Welcome Andy!!!!!  :-)  :-)

Congrats to both of you.  Wishing all will be well
and that one day you will sleep through the night.
JudyL

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:46:35 -0800
From:    "K. C. Smith" <tigrlady2u@j.......>
Subject: Re: Care2 E-Card from Lady Hawke

Cute! Thanks! :)
KC Smith
tigrlady2u@j.......
"I've never met a chocolate I didn't like."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:19:51 -0500
From:    Lisa McDavid <mclisa@m.......>
Subject: Re: Religious symbols other than crosses

Billie-Lee asked, quoting me, McLisa,
>So, you were saying about Saint Francis as decoration not having absorbed
>enough religious Believers' vibes to be venerated........do you think then,
>(and I am not being facetious, honest) that a Vampire could have a statue of
>Saint Francis in his/her garden?

I think it's possible in the FK universe, if he/she thought of it as merely a
garden ornament. It's just occurred to me that Nick is able to be around the Red
Cross symbol and even drive a jeep with it on the hood in Can't Run, Can't Hide.
This makes more sense if it's because Nick sees the white cross on the red
background as a logo rather than a cross. A garden statue of St. Francis might
be the same kind of thing.

And he wore a surcoat with a cross as part of a coat of arms in the flashback
from Valentine's Day.

>For instance, (it seems to me, YVMV -->) that Nick is something of an animal
>lover, witness "Blind Faith," Perry and Raleigh (don't remember him interacting
>with Nat's cat Sydney>

Well, Sydney was standing on the table while Nick looked through Nat's day
planner, so obviously they at least had a truce. <g>

>If Nick were to place a purchased, non-blessed (say from a garden
>shop?) statue of Saint Francis <snip> that had not absorbed the
>religious vibes of Believers in his garden (or wherever)

Again, I think it's possible if Nick doesn't regard it as anything but an
ornament and it has no vibes to release.

BTW, my Icons, Saints, Angels and other (Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Crucifix, etc.)
<vibes and non-blessed objects>

This was originally Linda Roth's theory, but my understanding is that the vibes
come from the use in veneration. For example, the icons are sacred pictures for
focusing prayer and veneration. That should fill them with vibrations. The
menorah from the Dead of Night would acquire them by being there and serving as
a focus/reminder while being lit and the appropriate prayers are said. So I
don't think a blessing would be necessary for an object to repel vampires in
this theory.

Now, a rosary is also a prayer focus, but  rosaries generally have a cross or a
crucifx with figure. I think Nick would react to a rosary even if it hadn't been
prayed with, because as a mortal the cross and especially a crucifix would have
had powerful meaning for him. (I think it still does, but of course that's a
matter of opinion.)

>could Nick touch that, or would my feelings and beliefs
>about it make it indeed venerated, and therefore harmful to Nick (or
>any other FK Vampire

I'd expect Nick to have a certain amount of trouble, but by the end of the
series I don't think it would be harmful.

McLisa
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:52:25 -0700
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: FK Computer games and Lemmings

>I think LaCroix would build the grids up to juuuust short of point B >and
>enjoy watching the little rodents march happily to their doom while safety
>was just
>beyond reach.

I'll admit to doing it a few times.  Very entertaining. <EG>
                        'Rose


Rome was not built by holding committe meetings.  It was done by killing all
those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:10:34 -0700
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: Jen, Queen of Inquiries, Inquires

>Janette's tattoo was going to disappear the next day so I say not.  But
>then I wonder why Vachon was so eager to get his hand back in Black Buddah.
>Wouldn't he have just grown another like Nick must have grown new body
>parts after that pipe bomb?  Maybe he wanted his 1529 class ring back?

I'd say that plastic surgery would do no good, but he wanted his hand back
for the sheer amount of time and energy it would take to grow the darn thing
back. <G> He is lazy after all.
                      'rose
Rome was not built by holding committe meetings.  It was done by killing all
those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:15:18 -0700
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: LaCroix is hiding! (or deserves one.)

WHERE can you get that LaCroix water?!  WE've been all over this silly
country and *still* can't find the stuff!  suggestions please?
                             'Rose

Rome was not built by holding committe meetings.  It was done by killing all
those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:51:03 -0800
From:    Emily <emilymhanson@y.......>
Subject: Re: LaCroix is hiding! (or deserves one.)

Both Cub Foods and Rainbow in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, have it.

Emily

--- Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......> wrote:
> WHERE can you get that LaCroix water?!  WE've been all over this silly
> country and *still* can't find the stuff!  suggestions please?
>                              'Rose
>
> Rome was not built by holding committe meetings.  It was done by
> killing all
> those who opposed them.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:17:51 -0500
From:    Anne Terrien <aterrien@g.......>
Subject: Re: LaCroix is hiding! (or deserves one.)

My first thought was netgrocer.com, but they didn't carry it.  I found that:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/oioffice/index.html does carry it, but
you have to order in packs of 24, shipping could be a problem.  I'd
try browsing through shopping.yahoo.com, that's where I found the
office site.

Anne



>WHERE can you get that LaCroix water?!  WE've been all over this silly
>country and *still* can't find the stuff!  suggestions please?
>                              'Rose

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 28 Oct 2001 to 29 Oct 2001 (#2001-328)
***************************************************************


Previous digest Back to October's list Next digest






Parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/