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FORKNI-L Digest - 3 Apr 2001 to 4 Apr 2001 (#2001-111)

Wed, 4 Apr 2001

There are 24 messages totalling 882 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Nicks Crusade (7)
  2. LaCroix evil? (was LC's view of fatherhood) (4)
  3. LC evil? (4)
  4. Nick's Crusade
  5. FK (2)
  6. Blood Pudding
  7. FK Easter Eggs
  8. Elders
  9. The Essential FK
 10. High Council?
 11. <No subject given>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:09:23 EDT
From:    Marel Darby <Frostsaint2@a.......>
Subject: Re: Nicks Crusade

Many crusaders were financially ruined through their involvement
in the enterprise. Some had bled their estates dry to buy costly arms;
others were captured and held to ransom. Land and titles were at risk of
usurpation by greedy relatives whilst they were absent. As they journeyed
home, empty of spoils, they often found townsfolk and villagers along the
way inhospitable and hostile, after suffering for years at the hands of wave
after wave of impoverished, battle-hardened veterans taking what wasn't
freely given.

No wonder Nick was a mite disillusioned. <g>

Marel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:38:33 -0700
From:    Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Nicks Crusade

> Molly/StormBorn> Too bad Nick's spoils didn't include some snazzier clothes! <g>

Hey!  One of my favorite scenes is of Nicholas wandering in the catacombs
while trying to find LaCroix.  Wonderful getup. Somewhere between Jedi
Knight and Gandalf. <g>  Forget GQ, I'll take that wardrobe anytime.

:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:38:25 +0000
From:    "A." <fictionbyA@p.......>
Subject: Re: LaCroix evil? (was LC's view of fatherhood)

StormBorn wrote:
> OK, obviously I don't think that LaCroix is evil, although he occasionally
> behaves in ways that we view as evil.  I don't think evil is a constant, or
> even a concrete construct; I believe that what we see as evil varies
> according to the situation and the mores of the time.

Does this mean that LaCroix is sometimes evil and sometimes not?  I
would say that something along those lines is accurate, however, I do
think that LaCroix makes the choice to do evil things.  Unlike Nick, I
don't think remorse is high up there on the things LC feels.  I think
that the fact that LC makes choices that bring unneccessary pain and
misery to the world makes him evil.  He doesn't have to be out doing
evil deeds 24-7 to continue a pattern of evil.

> So, let's see:  Does LaCroix commit murder?  Yes, by our standards; no, by
> his standards.

How else can we judge people if not by common or personal standards?
This can make for a confusing world, but I am not one who can advocate
people running around saying what they do is okay just because they
have different standards.  Since my standards say that killing
innocent human beings is an evil act then I see LC as evil.

>Has he killed mortals that Nick cared about?  Yes...but on
> the other hand Nat's still alive, and there was no reason he had to be so
> gentle with Schanke in 'Close Call'--after all, it would have been easy to
> do away with Schanke and cover it up, and if he was as 'evil' towards Nick
> as some believe, he could have forced *Nick* to kill Schank.
<some stuff snipped>

Making a couple of exceptions again does not make LaCroix a good
person.  I think the choices he makes regarding Nat and Schanke are
more selfish than anything else.  To kill them would push Nick away
even more and LC doesn't want Nick to pull away from him further.  He
wants Nick close to him, I think, to exert more control over him.

peace out,

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:30:27 EDT
From:    Wolfy Knight <Wolfy380@a.......>
Subject: LC evil?

Of what I've gathered from posts we're in the middle of a slight debate of if
LC is evil or not. IMHO (in my humble opinion) LaCroix is not necessarily
Evil. To me Evil is just a word people use to define people or actions they
believe are immoral. My view of LC is not that he is evil, but from his life
and background his morals and what he believes to be "Evil" acts were not
based on a good upbringing. (I'm basing some of this on my thoughts, and some
on an EP. in which I've lost the title too.... 3ed season (I think) flashback
with LC, Nick & Jeanette...., ...WAIT, dead air? something about
"transference"  in short, killer "believes" that victim is whom they what to
kill, (or just thinks they look enough like them to do it anyway in LC's
case) ))

Also, the fact that it he was a Roman, and they didn't view killing to be
such a deal as it is now, I mean he was a general and everything!

Furthermore, when he became a vampire he now was required to kill to live, so
why not have fun with it?

Someone said something about how a few instances cannot dismiss the fact he
maybe evil. I agree with you slightly, for all rules can bend. But to look at
his inner mind, I'd say he has the ability to be "normal" ::shudder:: (I hate
the word).

Proof: The main, strongest thing I can point out is that in Ashes to Ashes
(the EP with Divia killing off peeps, for those who know not names), in the
Flashback where he is actually repulsed by what Divia had done. Also with her
request and her apparent joy of her freedom to (paraphrasing from memory) "We
can bathe in flesh and blood if we want to!" or something along those lines.


~Wolfy Knight, who hopes she made her point clear, at least clearer to you
than to herself!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:44:34 -0700
From:    Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: LaCroix evil? (was LC's view of fatherhood)

> StormBorn wrote: <snip>I believe that what we see as evil varies
> > according to the situation and the mores of the time.

To me evil is without love.  To be without love is to be evil. LaCroix has
held love, so to me he is not evil.

A wrote:> I do think that LaCroix makes the choice to do evil things (And
wrote:) >Since my standards say that killing> innocent human beings is an
evil act then I see LC as evil. (And..) >Making a couple of exceptions again
does not make LaCroix a goodperson.

I agree that LaCroix chooses to do things that we think are bad.  However,
LaCroix is not human---he is a vampire, a predator, and must be judged by
vampire rules.  Is an animal evil because it kills and takes delight in
hunting?  If so, than my dear, departed Scottish Terrier was evil because
she got her kicks out of hunting anything that moved. <sighed Kyer the
vegetarian> But she was terribly defensive of her family and I loved her to
pieces despite her 'faults' and that mangled rug corner at the motel we
spent hours fixing instead of going to the amusement park!  agh!
On the last point...who in the world ever claimed that LaCroix was a 'good
person'?  I don't think even the Nunk Anons ever made that claim.

:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:00:21 -0400
From:    Mary Combs <mcombs@e.......>
Subject: Re: Nick's Crusade

> > StormBorn wrote:
> > Now, why it took him seven years to make it to Paris...?
> And Nancy Kaminski wrote:
> Because he got his directions from Mapquest

ROTFL!
I personally like the idea of Nick being part of the great wave of crusaders
that arrived in Acre in the spring of 1218 because he would then have had
the experience of both a stunning victory (the capture of Damietta) and the
disastrous defeat (due almost entirely to stupidity and greed) in 1221 that
Molly mentioned.

The thing is, the crusades have been numbered by historians, and for Nick
and his companions, there was in 1221 no sense of "Oh well, now the fifth
crusade is over."

Frederick II was still promising to come out -- and not coming. There were
well-established Christian holdings in the East, and some Christian knights
stayed on quite happily. If you had the financial resources, and didn't mind
the hot weather, life could be very pleasant compared to what was waiting at
home.

Frederick kept waffling for years, and Pope Gregory IX finally lost patience
and excommunicated him. Twice. Once in 1227 and again in 1228. In the end,
Frederick settled what we call the Sixth crusade with diplomacy--and crowned
himself King of Jerusalem.

We might imagine that one reason Nick decided to return home was that he was
fed up with the whole disgusting mess.

As to the length of his journey home, when he decided to go, the voyage back
to a port in what we call Italy (Genoa, Pisa or Venice) could take as little
as four weeks, if the weather was good.

Mary
mcombs@e....... N&Npacker
http:\\www.erols.com\mcombs
"RL=Real Life. It's that stuff that keeps happening that gets in the way of
that other stuff."--Sue Clark

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:09:54 -0700
From:    Lady Ariake <lady_ariake@y.......>
Subject: Re: FK

--- KnghtWtch@a....... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/3/01 12:24:49 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> Gersknightlady@c....... writes:

> Much too tought to answer.  It would be like being
> asked which one of your
> children do you want to give up.

I suspect I know why this question is being asked
::winks:: and all answers are appreciated!  I'll
admit, I have a remarkable tolerance when it comes to
vampires (I'll watch ANYTHING, almost, with the fanged
ones in it, though I'll admit a tendency to turn into
a one-woman Crow, Mike and Servo if it's particularly
bad ::coughcough LostBoys coughcough '79Dracula
coughcough::) and therefore any eps are good eps, but
I am seriously in need of something like "The
Essential Forever Knight."  In fact, has anyone ever
written something like that?  I've got the basics,
read the four novels, and I'm awfully well-read in
terms of fan fic, but as for the series itself, I'm a
bit lost.

Jennifer (Fan of a show she's never really seen.)

=====
"Vampirism--it does a body good!" Tom Servo, reviewing "The Wild World of Bat
Woman"

If Anita doesn't want to be Jean-Claude's human servant, can I volunteer?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 01:10:00 -0400
From:    Melissa Puzio <crimsonkisses@t.......>
Subject: Re: Blood Pudding

---- Original Message -----
From: <DanaKnight@a.......>
To: <FORKNI-L@l.......>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Blood Pudding


>
> Nick did have a cold burger in his frying pan. Who among us would it a stone
> cold burger, with all the congealed fat sitting on it all white and icky? I
> can't blame him for not eating it. Cold fat is gross tasting and very hard to
> get out of your mouth.

Well, I have never eaten a cold burger......(McDonald's doesn't count, I
swear it's not really meat :)=  )  But I  know whenever I get a steak that's
not a center cut sirloin or Filet, I perform surgery on it to remove all the
fat.

> Maybe if it hadn't been left over from the night before, maybe he would've
> eaten it. Or at least given it a serious attempt.

Speaking for myself, I absolutely will not eat a steak that is not rare or
medium rare.  Anything cooked more curdles my stomach!  Which amazes my aunt
who will take hers until it resembles the texture of an old shoe.  Maybe I
am just a weirdo, but you could skip the steak and just give me the bloody
juice!!!

On another side note, sometimes I wonder If I am one of those people that
consider themselves real vampires?  No not like LC & Nick and Company, but
those that consider themselves human with a few enhancement's that just need
blood once in a while.  Light that is normal for other's seems ungodly
bright for me. Everyday after work I always have a headache from the
overhead lights. Low beams on older cars feel like hight beams on my eyes,
so I rarely drive at night.I have very good hearing and can smell
restaurants from blocks away.  (Good Sniffers run in the family-mom's side)

Errr, but enough about me, I think Nat should have weaned him from rare
steaks through medium well, then moved him on protein shakes-chocolate
flavored!  No Human would even drink that crap that looks like Pepto
Bismol!!!

Mel aka Wolverina
crimsonkisses@t.......  ICQ# 24978740
*Vamp #61,Keeper of John Strauss's bicolored eyes
*Cousin*Valentine*Immortal Beloved*Dark Knightie*NatVampCamp*
"I' don't like being dead. It's rather annoying," LC, Curiouser and
Curiouser

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Apr 2001 20:51:13 -0400
From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: FK Easter Eggs

At 04:04 PM 4/2/2001 -0700, Molly counted FK characters (moved to wrapped
lines and numbered for linecount):

>(1) Nick        (2) LaCroix     (3) Janette     (4) Schanke
>(5) Nat (6) Screed      (7) Vachon      (8) Urs
>(9) Tracy       (10) Divia   (11) The Caddy (lay it on its side and attach
>tailfins)
>(12) Grace      (13) Myra (the 'invisible egg')

I'd probably not put in Divia (2 eps only) or Myra (and I thought we *did*
see her in Black Buddah, when Nick made The Visit) -- but I would put in
Stonetree, Cohen, and Reese. If you want to pare the lot down to twelve,
I'd kick out Grace and the Caddy, leaving the "regular" characters played
by human actors.

Now, if we were going to consider a dozen vamps... hmm... lessee...

Nick            Lacroix         Janette         Alma
Vachon  Screed          Urs             Miklos (?)
Aristotle       Larry Merlin    Feliks Twist    Brianna (?)
Jacqueline      Sophia          Erica (d.)      Serena
Divia (d.)      Francesca (d.?) Dr. Archer?(d.) Elizabeth (d.)
Richie (d.)     (the "neck" in SoB)

(?) means the character may or may not be a vamp; it seems like different
fans here interpret the character differently
(d.) means the guest character is deceased, as explained some time during
the course of the episode.

Another option might be a dozen "Nick's Necks" (aka a dozen Bimbos). Take
your pick from these and many more:

Alyssa  Amalia          Natalie         Sylvanie
Janette Erica           Elizabeth       Francesca
Pit Bimbo 1     Pit Bimbo 2     Pit Bimbo 3     (the AA codependent)
Emily Weiss     Marion Blackwing        Alyce Hunter    Rebecca (the rock star)

The "Nick's Necks" eggs are filled eggs of varying shades of chocolate,
trimmed in chocolate to match the womens' skin and hair tones. Mortal
"Necks" may be filled with custard, coconut creme, caramel or chocolate
nougat, etc. Immortal "Necks" may be filled with jellies, jellied liquors,
or liquored cherries. The chocolates are then wrapped in appropriate colors
of plastic wrap and/or aluminium foil, with wrap, foil, and tulle
decorations to mimic the clothes these characters wore.

Those who want their Nick more AC than DC (or is that "more DC than AC"?)
might choose to fill their Lacroix, Schankes, etc. with various nut meats
(filberts, walnuts, marzipan, etc.)



Brenda Faith Bell       webwarren@e.......
Consultant, The Web Warren      http://www.webwarren.com/

arachne@w.......
bfbell@d.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:04:14 -0700
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Elders

--- Tim Phillips <Timp@d.......> wrote:
> > How old does one have to be in FK terms to be a vampire elder?
>When Nick and Vachon first met, Nick acted like an elder and seemed to
expect Vachon to do what he said.  And Vachon didn't seem to have a
serious issue with Nick's attitude.<

It seems like in the Fk universe, respect and authority is based on two
things: The vampireís age and their generation. These also define their
physical power, which in turn earns them respect and obedience from
others. As to who is an elder Iíd say a vampire must be very old, perhaps
over 2000 (like LC) to be considered an elder in the community (Janette
was over 1000 but still didnít seem to be considered a senior ) also s/he
IMO must have some strong connections in the community (be a member of the
High Council or at least be recognized by them) to earn her/him the esteem
that is due to an elder.


=====
Countess -- Devoted Knightie, Immortal Beloved, Dark Trinity, with UF and
Enforcement tendencies

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:14:56 -0700
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: FK

Like someone on the list pointed out, it's hard to decide on 9 good
episodes, as if picking 9 among your children. I am planning to bring
someone across when I go back to Vancouver by playing him my tapes. But
Iím planning to leave out some episodes because they don't add anything to
the whole Nick & CO story. Here are the 9 episodes that I would *omit* :

- Beyond the Law
- The Code
- My Boyfriend is a Vampire
- Dead Air
- Spin Doctor
- Avenging Angel
- Outside the Lines
- Undue Process
- Human Factor

The last one is because it is my all time least favorite episode since it
entirely ruined the image of Jannete I used to love from seasons 1&2.


=====
Countess -- Devoted Knightie, Immortal Beloved, Dark Trinity, with UF and
Enforcement tendencies

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:11:10 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: The Essential FK

Jennifer wrote:
>>I'll admit, I have a remarkable tolerance when it comes to vampires (I'll
watch ANYTHING, almost, with the fanged ones in it, though I'll admit a
tendency to turn into a one-woman Crow, Mike and Servo if it's particularly
bad ::coughcough LostBoys coughcough '79Dracula coughcough::)<<

'Ey!  I love the '79 Dracula!  Now, Blade on the other hand...gag.

>>I am seriously in need of something like "The Essential Forever Knight."
In fact, has anyone ever written something like that?<<

Yup.  The First Unofficial Forever Knight Site at
http://loftworks.com/fktoc.html.

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
NA Forever!
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:19:51 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: Re: Nicks Crusade

Kyer wrote:
>> Hey!  One of my favorite scenes is of Nicholas wandering in the catacombs
while trying to find LaCroix.  Wonderful getup. Somewhere between Jedi
Knight and Gandalf. <g>  Forget GQ, I'll take that wardrobe anytime.<<

All he needs to complete that outfit is a begging bowl!  How do you say,
"Alms? Alms?" in medieval French?

On a more serious note, Mary gave a good summary of the Fifth and Sixth
Crusades, and concluded:
>>We might imagine that one reason Nick decided to return home was that he was
fed up with the whole disgusting mess.<<

Y'know, I figured the Crusades were the cause of Nick's disillusionment, but
you just made me ponder the idea that perhaps Nick didn't leave the Middle
East until late '27 or early '28.  Perhaps in the interim he 'hired out his
sword' to one or another lord of Outre-mer (as the European domains in the
Middle East were called)...good idea for a fic, actually.

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
NA Forever!
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:24:42 -0700
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: LaCroix evil? (was LC's view of fatherhood)

--- "A." <fictionbyA@p.......> wrote:
>> How else can we judge people if not by common or personal
standards?This can make for a confusing world, but I am not one who can
advocate people running around saying what they do is okay just because
they have different standards.  Since my standards say that killing
innocent human beings is an evil act then I see LC as evil.<<

Remember, *they* live in a different society than we do, so *their*
standards are different from ours. Vampires consider themselves as higher
beings in the food chain and what counts for us as "killing innocent human
beings" is for them "going to McDonalds and getting a couple of eats".


=====
Countess -- Devoted Knightie, Immortal Beloved, Dark Trinity, with UF and
Enforcement tendencies

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:50:19 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: LC evil?

Andrea wrote:
> <snip>I think that the fact that LC makes choices that bring unneccessary
pain and misery to the world makes him evil.  He doesn't have to be out
doing evil deeds 24-7 to continue a pattern of evil.<<

Ah--much like our own government?  My point is that evil isn't something you
can pin down (with a few exceptions, such as the Holocaust or other examples
of genocide).

> How else can we judge people if not by common or personal standards?

As Janette said, "You're not people, darling."  Vampires aren't people, and
trying to accuse one of murder is like accusing a lion of murder for killing
a gazelle.  People are their food source.  As Kyer put it:

>>Is an animal evil because it kills and takes delight in hunting?  If so,
than my dear, departed Scottish Terrier was evil because she got her kicks
out of hunting anything that moved.<<

>> This can make for a confusing world, but I am not one who can advocate
people running around saying what they do is okay just because they have
different standards.<<

Standards are not 'common' around the world, or from decade to decade.  They
vary from person to person as well.  Does purchasing products made in China
make one evil because they're buying the products of slave labor?  Is a
30-year-old male evil if he has sex with a 14-year-old girl?  In the US,
yes; in France or Russia, no.

>Making a couple of exceptions again does not make LaCroix a good person.

I don't think he's 'good' anymore than he's 'evil'.

>>I think the choices he makes regarding Nat and Schanke are more selfish
than anything else.  To kill them would push Nick away even more and LC
doesn't want Nick to pull away from him further.  He wants Nick close to
him, I think, to exert more control over him.<<

And yet he made Nick kill Raleigh and manipulated him into killing Sylvaine.
I think he hasn't harmed Nat or Schanke because he realizes the mistakes he
made in the past in this regard.  Yes, he wants Nick closer to him, but I
think it's because he dearly loves him--he just doesn't know how to love.

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
NA Forever!
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:52:36 -0700
From:    "David J. Duncan" <dante0220@y.......>
Subject: Re: Nicks Crusade

Hi Everyone:

>  Perhaps...he 'hired out his sword' to one or
>another lord of Outremer...good idea for a fic

That's possible.  On the honorable angle, this is
where the reference with Nick meeting Sultan Ayub
in the Sixth Crusade (now--my numberings off:
figures....)  during the flashback tied to
"Climax".  (Remember the meeting with Shajarat
al-Durr???  She states that her husband always
talked well of Nick.)  I guess one never forgets
a meeting with our redemption-seeking knight. <g>

Oh, by the way, if anyone wants to see a half-way
decent site(again, allowing for my numbering
boo-boo on the Crusades-- although I think
officially the Fifth is 1218-1221 and the Sixth
was 1249-1250), go to my Crusades site at
http://Dante_6.tripod.com/crusades/crusades.html
.
Also, on books (here I go into my RL persona for
a sec)--Runciman is still great.  In addition,
one might also want to read Christopher
Marshall's Warfare in the Latin East and Jonathan
Riley-Smith's Oxford Illustrated History of the
Crusades (Oxford, 1995) and The Atlas of the
Crusades (Facts on File, 1990).  Balanced
accounts between Christian, Islamic, and
Byzantine sides and updated bibliographies.
(Riley-Smith's History has a more recent bib.
than Runciman.)

Okay!<g>  Apologies for going on and on...I can't
resist talking about medieval stuff!

Thanks

David

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:11:07 -0400
From:    Melinda Hughes <Melinda_Hughes@v.......>
Subject: Re: LaCroix evil? (was LC's view of fatherhood)

I Agree with you Countess!

My quick 2 cents on it?

Without getting into a whole messy morality/immorality issue, I think we would
all be hard pressed to find someone EVERYONE could unanimously agree on as 100%
Pure, innocent and with uncorruptable morals, except for maybe a child, but
remember that that child will someday grow up, and with age comes wisdom and
temptation. (and some would argue none of us, as humans are pure anymore since
depending on your religion, we have all fallen from grace....)

I think though that we all would say killing an innocent is wrong, but think
about one thing:

Is killing a cow or a chicken so you can eat THAT much different?
(my apologies to the vegetarians out there! *G*)
Can we say that that animal you just killed to eat was NOT innocent?
If we can't then what makes us so different from LaCroix?
He kills to eat,it just happens to be that he needs to drink blood, whereas we
kill to eat for the flesh but both of us kill to survive.

Now I'll never say he's a candidate for Sainthood, and let's face it a lot of us
wouldn't like him if it weren't for the fact that he tends to show us the darker
side of the soul, but remenber, without the dark there can be no light.

All I'm saying is that if we begin to label things as "Good" or "Evil" we might
be missing the point.
No one is perfect, there are no absolutes..... and that's what makes life
interesting.... *G*

-Mindi
(Who is now going to go hide, ducking all the stakes that are probably heading
my way! *G*)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:15:05 -0700
From:    Lisa McDavid <cecily1349@y.......>
Subject: High Council?

>IMO must have some strong connections in the
community (be a member of the High Council or at least
be recognized by them)>

But FK doesn't have a High Council. There may be one
in fanfic, but it's not canon. We don't know anything
from the show about organization except the Enforcers.
There probably is one, but all we have is vague
references to community.

There aren't any cannonical references to Elders, as a
distinct class, either.  LaCroix's and Nick's
positions seem to be based on personal (vampirical
<g>?) reputation. After all, Screed asked Nick if here
were an Enforcer, not, "are you an Elder?"

McLisa, who would have liked to see much more of this
kind of thing in canon!
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:28:06 -0400
From:    Mary Combs <mcombs@e.......>
Subject: Re: Nicks Crusade

Stormborn wrote:

> ponder the idea that perhaps Nick didn't leave the Middle
> East until late '27 or early '28.  Perhaps in the interim he
> 'hired out his sword' to one or another lord of Outre-mer
> <snip> good idea for a fic, actually.

Yes indeed! And if the writer couldn't bear to be without LC, s/he could
take as a premise the theory that Janette's (and LaCroix') choice of Nick
was not a sudden impulse.
Before he brings Janette across, LC says to her that she hasn't the
slightest idea of how long he had been watching her--implying a very long
time.

Mary

mcombs@e....... N&Npacker
http:\\www.erols.com\mcombs
"RL=Real Life. It's that stuff that keeps happening that gets in the way of
that other stuff."--Sue Clark

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:59:10 -0400
From:    Mary Combs <mcombs@e.......>
Subject: Re: Nicks Crusade

David wrote

> I think <snip> the Sixth was 1249-1250)

The Sixth Crusade was the one "led" by Frederick II in 1228; he crowned
himself King of Jerusalem. (Jerusalem was lost by the West in 1244, not to
be "recovered" until 1917.)

The Seventh Crusade was the one led by Louis IX (St.Louis) of France. He
took up the cross in 1244, but didn't actually get to Egypt until 1249. He
was captured in 1250.

In 1291, Acre, Sidon and Beirut fell, and the Christians were driven out of
the Holy Land.

There were lots of other events going on that could have been counted as
crusades -- or episodes in one long crusade starting in the 11th century.
ORB is an excellent on-line site for resources on Nick's medieval time, both
pre and post coming across, including some wonderful primary source
material, translated:
http://orb.rhodes.edu/index.html

For anyone intrigued by primary source stuff, I also recommend "Chronicles
of the Crusades: Eyewitness accounts of the wars between Christianity and
Islam," which is lavishly illustrated and offers translations of
accounts--much of it, of course, quite deliciously biased--from both sides.

Mary
mcombs@e....... N&Npacker
http:\\www.erols.com\mcombs
"RL=Real Life. It's that stuff that keeps happening that gets in the way of
that other stuff."--Sue Clark


>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:46:16 -0400
From:    Jeannie Ecklund <Gersknightlady@c.......>
Subject: <No subject given>

Thank you for all who responded you my question about the nine episodes.  I have
two people I want to intruduce FK to and I wanted an over all idea of the best 9
to put on long play 8hr tape.  I am draging one of them to wolfville with me to
see Geraint and I wanted her to be able to appreciate his work on FK. Toalso be
able to recognise the FK landmarks in Toranto. I understand what those who said
its like picking out one child over another, are talking about. I agree whole
heartedly.  I love FK very much and hope to bring across two more people into
our universe.

Jeannie

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:07:26 -0400
From:    Portia 1 <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Re: LC evil?

The argument that vampires are just another breed of predator falls down if you
*do* view vampirism as a *metaphysical* state -- which possibly can be supported
if you look at the reaction to religious objects, the flying, demonic
possession, mesmerism, the multiple-personality vamp Jacqueline, Janette's cure,
etc.  If you view vampirism as a fall from grace, and vampires as humans who
chose a selfish and self-serving lifestyle, then it is possible for those who
oppose this type of mind-set to support Nick's quest and to view LaCroix as
being committed to the side of "evil."  "Evil" is also a metaphysical state, I
think....

Portia

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:22:04 -0700
From:    StormBorn <smolly4@q.......>
Subject: Re: LC evil?

Portia wrote:
>> The argument that vampires are just another breed of predator falls down
if you *do* view vampirism as a *metaphysical* state <snip><<

If you believe humans have souls, then being human is also a metaphysical
state--hence the argument still stands.  (Personally, I believe that
vampirism is a retro-virus that slowly mutates its host.)

I'll just say that I do not, I *cannot* believe in absolutes, and then I'll
let it drop.  Wise men have debated issues of morality for millenia; we're
not going to resolve the issue here.

Molly/StormBorn
Cousin, Ravenette, Dark Trinity, Seducer, Forum Fanatic, FK Pagan
NA Forever!
Abnormally fond of dead guys
smolly4@q.......

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:41:02 -0700
From:    Sunny LaCountess <countessa2000@y.......>
Subject: Re: Nicks Crusade

--- "David J. Duncan" <dante0220@y.......> wrote:
>> On the honorable angle, this is where the reference with Nick meeting
Sultan Ayub in the Sixth Crusade (now--my numberings off: figures....)
during the flashback tied to "Climax".  (Remember the meeting with
Shajarat al-Durr???  She states that her husband always talked well of
Nick.)  I guess one never forgets a meeting with our redemption-seeking
knight. <g> <<

Am I the only person who doesn't understand a boogs of what he's talking
about here? Nick had a flashback with Sultan Ayub?? In "Climax"? Is that
something related to any of those FK novels I can't get my hands on?


=====
Countess -- Devoted Knightie, Immortal Beloved, Dark Trinity, with UF and
Enforcement tendencies

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 3 Apr 2001 to 4 Apr 2001 (#2001-111)
*************************************************************


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