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FORKNI-L Digest - 22 Jan 2001 to 23 Jan 2001 (#2001-25)

Tue, 23 Jan 2001

There are 28 messages totalling 888 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [[FORKNI-L] difference between FK and Angel (etc.)] (3)
  2. Nick as sire & GWD in Robocop
  3. Nick as sire:
  4. Janette and revenge
  5. Janette's Parenting Skills
  6. Nick as sire (4)
  7. difference between FK and Angel (etc.) (12)
  8. [Re: [FORKNI-L] difference between FK and Angel (etc.)]
  9. Fan demographics
 10. Lucius in Gaul
 11. Hands ::sigh:: <g> (was: Re: on writing fan fiction)
 12. Chicago Cow exhibit & YKYBWFKTMW....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:13:26 CST
From:    Emily <emily.m.hanson@u.......>
Subject: Re: [[FORKNI-L] difference between FK and Angel (etc.)]

It's possible that it's because Angel and Buffy are on during Prime Time.  The
last time I watched FK in the US on a channel other than
Sci-Fi, it was after 10 PM.  Also not everyone gets cable, so the shows on
regular network stations might have a slight advantage.

Not to mention that Angel and Buffy seem to be aimed at younger sci-fi fans
(hence the "cartoon" effects), and FK was aimed at adults.

Emily

Klytaimnestra <lbowman@c.......> wrote:
> Lately I've watched a couple of episodes of Angel, and of Buffy.  I was
> trying to figure out why those shows are surviving and the far superior FK
> is gone.


------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:48:04 -0500
From:    Cecilia Long <celong@m.......>
Subject: Re: [[FORKNI-L] difference between FK and Angel (etc.)]

But if they had ut FK on during a DECENT TIME, they might have gotten more
viewers.  I had never heard of FK at that time it was on regualr air. There
was no ads for it, and it was on at a ridiculous time....
Now if I had known anything about it... I would have started watching before
it went onto SCI FI

--
Cecilia
Lady Ariadne--webmistress
http://www.wildbadgers.net
ICQ# 10820105
--
It's possible that it's because Angel and Buffy are on during Prime Time. The
last time I watched FK in the US on a channel other than
Sci-Fi, it was after 10 PM.  Also not everyone gets cable, so the shows on
regular network stations might have a slight advantage.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:42 -0600
From:    "B. Stone" <STONEB@g.......>
Subject: Nick as sire & GWD in Robocop

Nick as sire:  Perhaps Elizabeth, Richard, and the doctor were given
insufficient instruction on controlling their urge to kill because Nick
1) is reacting to having been over-controlled by his master and 2) is still
so repelled by the idea of killing that he forgets that others are not
similarly repelled.

GWD in Robocop:  When I told my husband how GWD's character had injured his
wife, tasted her blood, and then commented "with a glint in his eye" that
it still tasted good, he asked, "And did he call her a cow first?"
        B. Stone
        stoneb@g.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:09:03 -0800
From:    Klytaimnestra <lbowman@c.......>
Subject: Re: Nick as sire:

on 1/22/01 2:00 PM, Margie Hammet said:

> Was there any clue in the show as to
> whether LC originally intended to bring the Barber across, or was he just
> planning on having him for lunch?

What he said was that the Barber sickened him and he was 'unable to finish'.
So I don't think he meant to bring him across; he meant to have lunch and
leave a drained corpse, but since the Barber was still alive he would now
come across on his own.  He was asking Nick to finish the job for him, i.e.
kill him off.

Lucky Liz said:

> So maybe they just didn't have the mindset or experience needed to handle
> all the new emotions and urges.

Interesting idea.  If the ones who survive tend to already be violent and
used to being outcasts, then it's the ones who are used to being respected
members of the community that run into trouble.  The doctor.  Richie.
Elizabeth the formerly powerful beautiful woman. (Though she's a leper now.)

This means that Natalie should never be brought across - she'd go off the
deep end!

K
--
Klytaimnestra             lbowman@c.......
Fanfiction at http://members.home.net/lbowman

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:11:29 -0800
From:    Klytaimnestra <lbowman@c.......>
Subject: Janette and revenge

on 1/22/01 2:00 PM, David Duncan wrote:

> ("Revenge for the sake of revenge..."--was that
> the translation of the quote???

"The best revenge - is revenge!",
--
Klytaimnestra             lbowman@c.......
Fanfiction at http://members.home.net/lbowman
in response to LC's line just before he brings her across, "The best revenge
is living - forever!"

(I just saw the episode again.  Showcase is wonderful.)

K

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:28:33 -0000
From:    Barbara Vainio <bevainio@w.......>
Subject: Janette's Parenting Skills

Accepting for a moment (which I know not everyone does) that Janette brought
the baroness from "if Looks Could Kill" across, what does that say about
*her* parenting skills?

Her child is in Toronto doing something that could easily bring unwanted
publicity to the community and Janette seems totally oblivious.  Or is this
a good argument for LaCroix being the baroness' sire?  And if it is, what
does that say about his lack of interest in some f his children?

Barb

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 27 Aug 1956 12:51:36 +0000
From:    Jeannie Ecklund <jecklund@l.......>
Subject: Re: Nick as sire

I think one of the reasons that Nick's children didn't do so good is
that most of them had no idea Vampire's existed to start with.  They had
no idea what they would gain or lose.  They had no idea of the rules
ahead of time.

Richard especially lived in a time where good and evil lines had faded
and the existance of vampires was only a myth to him.

I think Natalie on the other hand would survive if made a vampire as she
knows what to expect and she's had a lot of experience dealing with
vampires.

Jeannie

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:12:41 -0600
From:    "Nancy E. Kaminski" <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: [[FORKNI-L] difference between FK and Angel (etc.)]

> Not to mention that Angel and Buffy seem to be aimed at younger sci-fi fans
> (hence the "cartoon" effects), and FK was aimed at adults.

Not to mention provocatively-attired young women, and much more sexuality
included as a matter of course.

Cynically,
Nancy Kaminski

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:37:19 -0500
From:    urtikit@m.......
Subject: Re: Nick as sire

McLisa:
>Maybe whether or not the new vampire gets out of
>control depends in part on his/her drives as a mortal.

I like this idea a lot.  The more driven, single-minded the individual
as a mortal, the more out of control they could potentially become.

Margie points out that the doctor:
>may not have been truly
>altruistic, as Nick believed, but motivated more out of a desire for his
>own importance.

I think that's a very likely scenario, given his reactions.
He was bloated with self-importance after the conversion, so
much so it lead to his own demise.
It's easy to imagine his initial desire to help the plague victims
was motivated in part by this personality trait.

Janette, on the other hand, wanted revenge on her 'pimp,'
Daviaud, mostly for causing the death of a friend.
However, this desire for revenge wasn't the center of her existence.
It wasn't what she had been striving for up until that point.  She
struck me more as coming to the awareness that she could have
revenge only after she'd come across, when LaCroix somewhat ...
led her to water, so to speak.
Elizabeth, on the contrary, goes right after her tormentors without
prompting.
As does Richard.
No adapting to the new reality, but a stranglehold on their old desires....

Kit
urtikit@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:47:50 -0700
From:    Kyer <kyer@p.......>
Subject: Re: Nick as sire

> I think Natalie on the other hand would survive if made a vampire as she
> knows what to expect and she's had a lot of experience dealing with
> vampires.
> Jeannie

Would she?
I know more about these vampires than Natalie does (being granted a form of
'godhood' via the tv screen) and I don't think I would deal with it terribly
well (even with fervent wishing!)

(Geez...I seem bent on getting myself fried here, but..<eg>)

It's one thing to be told that the Hunger is very strong and to see its
affects in another.  But I suspect that it is quite another thing to
actually *feel* it gnawing at your guts like some parastical monster.  Then
there is the power corrupts problem.  If their positions were reversed,
could you honestly NOT see Natalie hypnotizing people to get her way?

Nick won't drink her drinks?  Whammy him.
Making fun of King Kong?  Whammy him.
Need more test blood from a skittish Skanke?  Whammy him.
Want people to forget she's over 30?  Whammy 'em.
Want more time with the powerful microscope?  Whammy 'em.
Need more of that 'lovin feelin'?  Whammy him.
Sydney clawing the drapes?  Whammy him.

:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:25:24 -0500
From:    Emily Lacey <laceye@a.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

>Lately I've watched a couple of episodes of Angel, and of Buffy.

I like your observations. The only reason I watch Buffy occasionally,
is for Spike.

I watched Forever Knight for Nick, Lacroix, Janette, Natalie,
Schanke, Tracy, Vachon, whichever season's captain...

FK is just so superior...I wish they had had the budget that
Buffy/Angel have. Can you imagine what FK would have been with lots
of money?
--
Emily Lacey
laceye@a.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:10:23 -0500
From:    Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

At 10:25 AM 1/22/01 -0800, Klytaimnestra wrote:

>- real people (FK) vs. cartoons (Angel)
>- moral conflict (FK) vs. personal conflict (Angel)
>- some attempt at realism (FK) vs. choreographed cartoon martial-arts type
>- violence (Angel)

As others have mentioned, the main reason is demogaphics.

Although FK hits across the spectrum, the largest group of viewers -- at
least, as far as I can tell from this list and its children -- is women in
their 30's and 40's. Traditionally, these are the demogrphic that buys
soaps, children's clothes, groceries, and household items (so-called
"low-ticket" merchandise).

Buffy and Angel are aimed at people in their 20's, most of whom don't have
mortgages and child-care to worry about, and who purchase designer clothes,
hot electronics, flashy cars... the so-called "high-ticket" items. They're
also people who are more likely to be watching TV during expensive-ad-rate
prime-time hours, rather than preparing/cleaning up after dinner, helping
the kids with their homework, getting the kids ready for bed, etc.

Television programming is determined as much by advertising placement and
rates and demographics as by sheer viewership numbers. A show that can
bring in higher conversions of ad viewers to purchasing customers, to
higher-ticket items, can demand -- and receive -- higher per-minute
advertising rates, and can "earn its way" above and beyond competing
programs that cannot promise that conversion ratio or demand those
advertising rates.

Another thing US-produced shows like "Buffy", "Angel", and "Charmed" have
in common is in-story product placement. This can be anything from a
character picking up a can of Pepsi One to the "live" and recorded
performances of high-profile musicians in places like the Bronze and P3. I
may be mistaken, but I don't recall Nick's jeans blazoned with "CK" or a
Tommy Hilfinger logo on the buttocks, nor have I seen a "FuBu" logo on
Reese's tie... and I don't think PepsiCo has come out with a "Pepsi Blood"
flavor yet <eg>...

"Pepsi Blood... the choice of an Eternal generation"

Brenda F. Bell   webwarren@e.......   /nick TMana     IM: n2kye
Arctophile, computer addict, TREKker, stealth photographer...
         UA, PoCBS, FKPagan; Neon-Green GlowWorm
HugMistress of the Ger Bear Project https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/
Gerthering 3 Photos:  https://members.tripod.com/~TMana/gertherng/
Visit the Fiendish Glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~webwarren/glow/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:55:33 EST
From:    Tammie Foley <X7xAngelx7x@a.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

In a message dated 1/23/01 6:05:42 AM Mountain Standard Time,
webwarren@e....... writes:

<<
 Buffy and Angel are aimed at people in their 20's, most of whom don't have
 mortgages and child-care to worry about, and who purchase designer clothes,
 hot electronics, flashy cars... the so-called "high-ticket" items. They're
 also people who are more likely to be watching TV during expensive-ad-rate
 prime-time hours, rather than preparing/cleaning up after dinner, helping
 the kids with their homework, getting the kids ready for bed, etc. >>

Bitter much? Chill out. Just because "Angel" is a bigger hit than FK is no
reason to go around attacking people. That's seriously petty and no where
near the spirit of what this board is suppost to be about.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:21:27 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

In a message dated Tue, 23 Jan 2001  9:56:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tammie
Foley <X7xAngelx7x@a.......> writes:

<<Bitter much? Chill out. Just because "Angel" is a bigger hit than FK is no
reason to go around attacking people.>>

Although I did raise my eyebrows at some earlier statements about Buffy, there
was nothing in the message Tammie responded to stating that the difference of
the demographics of whom the shows are aimed at as attacking anyone. That IS
something the networks (cable or not) consider in renewing a show. People in
their early 20s DO tend to spend more, as a rule, though of course there are
plenty of exceptions, because they don't have the responsibilities.

I don't know if FOREVER KNIGHT was aimed at an older audience than Buffy or not,
but it did attract one (this does NOT mean every fan is "older" - I wasn't at
the time). That's why when USA bought the rights, they tried to "sex it up" -
they felt it would attract the younger demographics that ADVERTISERS want.

Many FK fans also love BUFFY and ANGEL. There's nothing wrong with that. Some
don't like the shows. Nothing wrong with that either. Some BUFFY and ANGEL fans
love (or would love) FK, others wouldn't. Big deal. Tastes vary.

Let's not have remarks like "Chill Out" over a simple fact that the shows
demographics differ, please.

I'm assuming everyone knows this, but maybe not... Advertisers PAY to have spots
on the show. That's how programs make money for the networks. Advertisers do
care about ratings a LITTLE, but they care about the demographics (or WHO) is
watching the show even more. Shows have been cancelled with good ratings because
advertisers felt the demographics of those watching aren't big consumers. On the
opposite side, some shows with okay but not great ratings keep going on and
on(Buffy, at one point but I don't know if this is true) - the demographics of
the audience indicate they would be BIG spenders.

This is one reason why KTK and many other fans trying to at least get the reruns
of FK back on are big charity spenders (or at least why we scream our giving far
and wide). One of the biggest per person, if not THE biggest in fandom... It
proves we could financially support merchandise, etc. Of course I think we would
be anyway because we are generous people who help our own and others.

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:56:17 -0400
From:    "T. Floyd" <jflyer@b.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forever Knight TV show [mailto:FORKNI-L@l.......]On Behalf Of
> Libratsie@a.......

> consumers. On the opposite side, some shows with okay but not
> great ratings keep going on and on(Buffy, at one point but I
> don't know if this is true) - the demographics of the audience
> indicate they would be BIG spenders.

I seem to recall that it was for that very reason that the original Star
Trek series was revived--it's ratings were barely lukewarm, but it was one
of the first shows to really grab the particularly tasty demographic group
of 14 to 24 year old intelligent people with promising careers, or whatever
the definition is, that advertisers hadn't been able to really attract.

> ... we could
> financially support merchandise, etc. Of course I think we would
> be anyway because we are generous people who help our own and others.

You'd think that a fan group where people are actually willing to say, 'I'd
buy a full series of tapes or dvds no matter the price' would have to have
some appeal to advertisers of *some* product.  (No that isn't me--I'm in the
group Brenda mentioned that generally buys more Proctor and Gamble products
than Sony.

Hey, do we have access to serious demographics info, or are we just guessing
based on who is on the lists?  Perhaps we should be targeting letter writing
campaigns to companies that would appeal to the demographic but who might
not normally advertise on Forever Knight.  (Honest, if this is really dumb
excuse me--it's been a long day involving battery chargers and lead
batteries and things.)

"Hey, Mr./Ms. manufacturer of toilet paper, diapers, baby wipes, dish soap,
floor cleaner, laundry soap, kids' clothing, school supplies, children's
toys, panty hose, orange juice, 'feminine hygiene' products, multivitamins,
cookbooks, newspapers, cough and cold remedies, asthma medication, tissues,
station wagons, sport utility vehicles (we sometimes buy big ticket)....Have
I got a show for you!"

I did actually see a long thread on a vamp news group about how to remove
blood stains from clothing...Tide, Jive, and Stain Away to the rescue!

"Attention Wal Mart Shoppers..."

Lap (okay, I'll go quietly)
admin@p.......
http://Laplor.tripod.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:25:19 -0500
From:    Mickey <wench@a.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

At 10:21 AM 1/23/01 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't know if FOREVER KNIGHT was aimed at an older audience than Buffy
>or not, but it did attract one (this does NOT mean every fan is "older" -
>I wasn't at the time). That's why when USA bought the rights, they tried
>to "sex it up" - they felt it would attract the younger demographics that
>ADVERTISERS want.

I don't know if FK was for an older audience either, but judging by the
ages of a lot of people on this list and yes, I mean all you old timers, I
don't see how it could have been aimed at an older crowd when most of us
discovered FK in our late 20's and early 30's.

Over in England, they consider Angel to be an adult show. Both Buffy and
Angel come with a warning in the US that they are for mature teens and
adults. They won't even show Angel during kiddie hours in England. I have
two Buffy related lists myself, both are for adults, one for fans of Giles
and Joycem the other for fans of Spike. Buffy is one of my favorite shows
and I enjoy Angel. Maybe it was a natural progression, my son and I both
enjoyed FK when we were younger, now as a teenager, he and I watch B and A
together, we both like the whole vamp thang <G> I don't however remember
too much product placement in Buffy and the bands that play and the music
that is played is usually by an obscure band, not mainstream popular ones,
as some shows, like Sabrina have  resorted to. I see much more product
placement on shows like that and Popular and Grosse Point.

As far as the sex issue, I'm not sure if I would have watched FK with my
son as a young teen, I don't see how anyone can say that FK isn't chock
full of sexuality and that Janette isn't provocative or that the
relationship between Nick and LaCroix didn't often carry what Carmela
Soprano would refer to as a "whiff of sexuality" between them. It is a very
sensual show in my opinion. And who can ever forget the very steamy Schanke
seduction by the vamp who's name I can't remember? Would FK have made it if
it had been the one to be given a trial run during primetime instead of
Sweating Bullets? I think so.

Libs said:

>Many FK fans also love BUFFY and ANGEL. There's nothing wrong with that.
>Some don't like the shows. Nothing wrong with that either. Some BUFFY and
>ANGEL fans love (or would love) FK, others wouldn't. Big deal. Tastes vary.

Exactly, I think we can find a lot more to talk about on the FK subject
than having to resort to comparing to other shows. Not only demographics
are important, but times change. 10 years ago wicca was not a commonplace
word, now a days it seems to be on everyone's tongue. The original Buffy
movie was given a lukewarm reception, I don't know how many years later,
but at least 5 years later, the TV show becomes a smash hit, TV Guide lists
it in it it's top 10 favorite shows, who would have ever thought that a
vampire show would reap such accolades?

Personally, I like the whole genre, I was and still consider myself to be a
Dark Shadows fan. I was thrilled to see a vamp show in the line up for
Crimetime after Primetime, I was thrilled to see Buffy. I'd just like to
admire each of them for what they are.

>Let's not have remarks like "Chill Out" over a simple fact that the shows
>demographics differ, please.

I didn't take Tammie's remark as being harsh, nor did I think she was
referring to the demos, I took it as frustration over what was coming
across as rather harsh comparison of one show against another. I just don't
think it's needed.

Annmarie aka Mickey
wench@a.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:35:03 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

In a message dated Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:59:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, "T.
Floyd" <jflyer@b.......> writes:

<<You'd think that a fan group where people are actually willing to say, 'I'd
buy a full series of tapes or dvds no matter the price' would have to have
some appeal to advertisers of *some* product.>>
I know what you mean! I'm afraid, though, that I'd just sit there and burst into
tears at NOT being able to do so. LOL! Or maybe I'd take up a chant of "DVDs for
the POOR. FK DVDs for the POOR" and put on my best "I'm a Ratpacker, feed me FK
DVDs" expression. I've been told I'm VERY good at that even if it hasn't worked
to get Screed's hat out of Greg Kramer. He won't even tell me where he has it
hidden!

<<  (No that isn't me--I'm in the
group Brenda mentioned that generally buys more Proctor and Gamble products
than Sony.>>
With me, it really Depends ... uhr, depends. BWAHAHAHHA.

*thwamp*

(that's the sound effect for a Ratpacker being thwamped with a rolled up
newspaper for the newbies)

<<Hey, do we have access to serious demographics info, or are we just guessing
based on who is on the lists? >>
I'm not sure about the serious demographics, but even when I went to cons when
the show was still on the air, the youngest FK fans were USUALLY in their mid to
late 20s, with most being older. Still holds true. I have run into a few
teenagers - and most of them were introduced to the show through adults.  In
fact, the FK groups I've visited with at cons and parties since the show's
demise have pretty much all been adults, although especially at cons, there are
tons of teenagers and younger adults around.

<< Perhaps we should be targeting letter writing
campaigns to companies that would appeal to the demographic but who might
not normally advertise on Forever Knight.>>
Some of us have done that. And if I recall the advertising on Sci Fi during FK
correctly, it was more generic products I know I use. Ricolla (sp?) throat
thingees come to mind immediately.

When FK was in ORIGINAL sydnicated (still being produced), the local station had
a lot of mental health hospital advertising during it. I probably was with the
only group of major FK fans during the first airing of Last Knight that were
actually in hysterical LAUGHTER during most of the episode. Especially at
(paraphrased): "Does your child show signs of depression? Does he have a
drinking problem? Do you suspect he is abusing drugs? Is he rebellous?"

Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:16:31 +0100
From:    Llarian <manulanger@t.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

T. Floyd wrote:

>of the first shows to really grab the particularly tasty demographic group
>of 14 to 24 year old intelligent people with promising careers, or whatever
>the definition is, that advertisers hadn't been able to really attract.

Makes me wonder why... perhaps it's the IQ? :)
Mine's 160, and I never make a decision on which product to buy based
on advertisement.

Llarian
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home"
- Ken Olson, president, chairman, founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
mailto:manulanger@t.......  http://www.llarian.de

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:36:34 -0500
From:    Portia 1 <portia1@m.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

I love FK and have no bad comments to say about our show, obviously.  And so
I've restrained myself from defending my other love, Buffy the Vampire Slayer,
because I know that this isn't a forum for discussing anything other than FK and
things associated with it.  But I feel like a coward not saying that Buffy/Angel
are popular because they are excellently well-written, with well-developed
characters, deep wit and insightful humour, great action, and are both
culturally and pop-culturally literate.  The fan base ranges from young adults
to people in their 50's and 60's, and most of my friends who enjoy the show
share my age range by being in their 30's.  And we are not unique, as can be
determined by the numerous fan lists, bulletin boards, websites, etc.  Both
Buffy and Angel have the capacity to entertain a broad band of fan types -- men
and women, young and old, the action-only focused and the literate/ecucated.

FK entranced me b/c of its fascinating world, its conception of vampires, its
wonderful stories and relationships, the ethical struggle of the main character,
its wonderful actors, its humour and humanity -- and these are the *same* things
that have attracted me to Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel.

Portia

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:54:20 CST
From:    Emily <emily.m.hanson@u.......>
Subject: Re: [Re: [FORKNI-L] difference between FK and Angel (etc.)]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to watch either Buffy or Angel because for
over a year now, I always end up having a Tuesday night class.
Also, I'm in my mid-twenties and don't know many people my age who can afford
big ticket items, no matter how much they're advertised.  When you're young,
unless you start right out of Harvard or something, you're not going to be at
the top of the pay scale.

However, from what I have seen of Buffy & Angel and what I've heard, their
target audience seems to be younger.  Contradicting my own argument, I was
just out of high school when I saw FK for the first time.  It was still being
shown on a network channel then, but way after primetime hours.

Emily

Brenda Bell <webwarren@e.......> wrote:

Buffy and Angel are aimed at people in their 20's, most of whom don't have
mortgages and child-care to worry about, and who purchase designer clothes,
hot electronics, flashy cars... the so-called "high-ticket" items...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:58:32 -0800
From:    Lisa McDavid <cecily1349@y.......>
Subject: Fan demographics

Judging by the local ads where I was, Columbia, S.C.,
and what I've heard about elsewhere, the local
stations thought we were (a) men so desperate for er,
company that we'd want to call chat lines for
supposedly local young women who looked exactly like
the hard-faced Las Vegas older harpies you'd find
where the ads were produced or (b) both sexes gullible
enough to call psychic hotlines for the allegedly free
calls. I understood the public service ads, which got
them points with the F.C.A. I just wondered, given the
most common spot, why they thought we were
particularly likely to leave our infant child alone in
a bath long enough for her to turn on the hot water
and scald herself. Our depression ads were for a local
for-profit mental hospital.

The national ads must have been correctly targeted,
because they did tend to be toothpaste and food.

What really bewildered me was why USA bought a show
with a known solid following of mostly women with
disposable income and tried to turn it into a vampiric
jiggle show for 20-something men. Given the percentage
rate for failure, they must have known they risked
alienating the original audience while not gaining the
new one.

McLisa
mclisa@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:13:29 -0700
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: Nick as sire

>I've got a question about the Barber.  Was there any clue in the show as
>to whether LC originally intended to bring the Barber across, or was he
>just planning on having him for lunch?

I think he just wanted lunch. :)
              'Rose

Rome was not built by holding committe meetings.  It was done by killing all
those who opposed them.


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:33:59 EST
From:    Laudon1965@a.......
Subject: Lucius in Gaul

I've found that the FK writers may not have fudged history after all.
I had previously thought that they'd erred or purposely misplaced
Lucius as a cruel instrument of Rome in Gaul, becuase Julius
Caesar had conquered Gaul over 120 years before.  Now I find,
in reading a book about the history of the Celts, that there was
an uprising in Gaul in 71 AD.  Unfortunately the book doesn't
go into further detail, and my search on the Web hasn't turned
up anything yet, so I don't know how long the uprising lasted.
Conceivably though, Lucius could have been asked to remain
in authority for some time after the rebellion was put down, and
that, coupled with how long travel took in those days, could
explain his not returning to Pompeii until 79AD.  That plus the
fact that he certainly would have wanted to stop in Rome first
to receive his Triumph.

The quelling of an uprising is certainly much better explanation
for the atrocities the writers have Lucius authorizing.  Caesar
had generally followed a policy of patriating those he conquered,
or awarding them to his men as slaves, rather than rape and
slaughter.  A general sent to stamp out a rebellion would be
much more likely to order such viscious treatment, to break
the rebels' spirits and reassert Roman mastery over the region.

I'm just pleased to know there's reason to give the writers the
benefit of the doubt. <g>

Laurie of the Isles

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:54:17 EST
From:    Laudon1965@a.......
Subject: Hands ::sigh:: <g> (was: Re: on writing fan fiction)

In a message dated 1/22/01 12:14:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
portia1@m....... writes:

<< LOL!  I just spent a half hour examining pictures of Nigel to get a good
view of his fingers, to see if he had long 'uns or blunt 'uns! (As I should
have guessed, he has the artist's long fingers -- darn it. "g") >>

He and Ger both have beautiful hands.  The scene in NiQ where
The doctor, Nat and Reese are gathered around Nick's hospital
bed, Nick puts his hand to his head, his fingers touching his fore
head, trying to remember.   I just melt.<g>

For a great Nigel's hands scene: in AtA, LaCroix is sitting alone
at the bar, a wineglass in hand, just before Nick walks up to
question him about the young girl who called his show.

Laurie of the Isles
She of the hand fetish. <g>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:05:30 EST
From:    Tammie Foley <X7xAngelx7x@a.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

In a message dated 1/23/01 8:22:27 AM Mountain Standard Time,
Libratsie@a....... writes:

<< Although I did raise my eyebrows at some earlier statements about Buffy,
there was nothing in the message Tammie responded to stating that the
difference of the demographics of whom the shows are aimed at as attacking
anyone. That IS something the networks (cable or not) consider in renewing a
show. People in their early 20s DO tend to spend more, as a rule, though of
course there are plenty of exceptions, because they don't have the
responsibilities.
  >>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:08:44 EST
From:    Tammie Foley <X7xAngelx7x@a.......>
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

In a message dated 1/23/01 8:22:27 AM Mountain Standard Time,
Libratsie@a....... writes:

<< Although I did raise my eyebrows at some earlier statements about Buffy,
there was nothing in the message Tammie responded to stating that the
difference of the demographics of whom the shows are aimed at as attacking
anyone. That IS something the networks (cable or not) consider in renewing a
show. People in their early 20s DO tend to spend more, as a rule, though of
course there are plenty of exceptions, because they don't have the
responsibilities. >>

Let me clairify my "Chill out" statement. it sounds as if a lot of people are
bitter than vampire show a is more popular than vampire show b. Just because
vampire show a has more fans is no reason to criticize the watchers. FK was
an awsome show! im a huge fan, if i wasnt i wouldnt be on the list or taking
the time to write this but there must be a reason that millions more watch
ANGEL. Its not "ANGEL"'s fault that they have more viewers or that the show
isnt being cancled. I think many people are bitter because ANGEL is doing
better than FK and thats not right. Its like being bitter because a friend
got a job you wanted. You should be happy for your friend and we should be
happy that there is a show out there promoting the un-dead = )

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:17:38 EST
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: difference between FK and Angel (etc.)

In a message dated Tue, 23 Jan 2001  4:11:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tammie
Foley <X7xAngelx7x@a.......> writes:

<< You should be happy for your friend and we should be
happy that there is a show out there promoting the un-dead = )>>

Oh, I certainly agree with you there! As an embarrassing amount of people will
remember, I was the one who pointed out to the list about some FLAMING by FK
fans on the UltraViolet (sp?) board when that miniseries aired on Sci Fi.  In
fact, the more popular ANY vampire series becomes, the better, because it may
finally knock it into Sci Fi's (or another network's) head that they at least
need the reruns back on.

By the way, I've gotten some comments off list - I LOVE what I've seen of Buffy.
I haven't seen that many episodes due to time restraints (I'm involved in
theater and between a day job, theater, and freelance writing, I don't have much
tv time anymore), but I agree what I've seen is well written. I haven't seen
Angel yet. I know I'd be hopelessly hooked to both given the chance which is one
reason I try to avoid watching. LOL! <wRPg>

Obviously, Buffy did not hook me as FK did the first time I saw it, but as
everyone probably realizes, Screed is the one who immediately "grabbed" me (and
I've been having to take three baths a day since). I was even upset when I found
out he was a "new" character that season so was not in the first two seasons I
hadn't seen. *pout*

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:42:25 -0000
From:    Jackie Brown <jaxuk1996@h.......>
Subject: Re: Chicago Cow exhibit & YKYBWFKTMW....

Actually, I drink Sangre de Toro (Bull's Blood in Spanish) (and Gran Sangre
de Toro [Great Bull's Blood -- must be for special customers <g>]) from
Spain fairly regularly.  One of the benefits of living in Europe.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Spaine3@a.......>
To: <FORKNI-L@l.......>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: Chicago Cow exhibit & YKYBWFKTMW....

> There is a popular and relatively inexpensive red wine known as Bull's Blood
> --Hungarian, if memory serves--that my husband and I used to drink in our
> young,impoverished student days.
>
> I always thought it should be among the vintages that Janette stocked in the
> Raven.
>
> Sue Paine
>

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 22 Jan 2001 to 23 Jan 2001 (#2001-25)
**************************************************************


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