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FORKNI-L Digest - 26 Oct 2000 to 27 Oct 2000 (#2000-332)

Fri, 27 Oct 2000

There are 17 messages totalling 612 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. I need two things
  2. question for fanfic
  3. [[FORKNI-L] FK: The Lost Episode?] (2)
  4. Appeal from KtK
  5. CN Tower
  6. Trophy Girl Question (2)
  7. Maybe Cow Blood wasn't so bad after all
  8. A Moral LaCroix? (8)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:04:25 MDT
From:    Rose Thatcher <dreamerextrodanar@h.......>
Subject: Re: I need two things

actually, it got sent.  THanks much though!
              'Rose

>From: KaAG@a.......
>Reply-To: Forever Knight TV show <FORKNI-L@l.......>
>To: FORKNI-L@l.......
>Subject: Re: I need two things
>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:00:14 EDT
>
>In a message dated 10/25/00 11:26:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>dreamerextrodanar@h....... writes:
>
><< One-my sister, Megan, wrote a sequal to Joshua, entitled "Changes."  I can't
>  find it anywhere, including on the FKfan page.  does anyone have it? >>
>I did some beta reading for Megan. I will look in my files for it..........
>I probably have the alpha version.
>
>If I find it I'll send it your way.
>
>karen

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:42:54 -0400
From:    Diane Harris <diharris@v.......>
Subject: question for fanfic

Do guns have to be registered in Canada?  Are just hand-guns kept on record,
or is inclusive to all firearms?

Diane Harris (diharris@v.......)
Proud NNPacker, Knightie, FoDs, CoTK, and glutton for any and all feedback.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/diharris/Homepage.htm

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:30:14 CDT
From:    Emily <emily.m.hanson@u.......>
Subject: Re: [[FORKNI-L] FK: The Lost Episode?]

Maybe they were talking about the first season ep where Schanke sees Nick
flying through a window, and tries to tell Stonetree, and Stonetree tells him
the story about the scorpions?  Of course, Schanke has no solid proof as of
that ep.

Emily

Emma Lighton <elighton@b.......> wrote:

It was, but the end of the description of the second season had this little
gem: "and, early in the season, Schanke found out Nick was a benign
vampire."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:21:41 EDT
From:    BJDFKFan@a.......
Subject: Re: Appeal from KtK

Just an update and a repeat of our message...  Thanks to some extremely
generous contributions toward Kickstart the Knight's first *full page* ad to
be placed in the Hollywood Reporter, we now need to raise just *$895.00* by
November 25, 2000.  Please consider sending a contribution of any amount you
can afford.  To put things in perspective, we now need:  Just 179 $5
contributions, OR just 90 $10 contributions, OR just 60 $15 contributions.
We will keep everyone posted on the status of the fundraising.

I won't keep repeating the original message every day, I promise, but here is
KtK's appeal one more time, as posted yesterday (the numbers of course have
changed as stated above):

Kickstart the Knight wants to maximize the impact of our latest Hollywood
Reporter ad by making it a *full page* ad for the first time in KtK history.
Our recent online auction has raised nearly two-thirds of the money we need
for a full page ad.  We just need to raise another $1,000.00 to make our
first full page ad a reality.  We know there are a lot of Forever Knight fans
out there who want the original FK series to return to television; who want
FK merchandise such as videotapes, novels, etc.; and who want new FK in the
form of FK movies.  In order to help achieve these goals, KICKSTART THE
KNIGHT NEEDS YOUR HELP!  Between now and November 25, 2000 KtK wants to raise
$1,000.00 to make a full page ad a reality.  It will again be a custom
designed beautiful original artwork, as our other recent ads have been.  And
it has the ability to make a HUGE impact on The Powers That Be.  The recent
full page ad for Lexx caused a major stir in the industry, getting the
attention of E! Online, Cinescape, SFC's Bonnie Hammer, and others.  We
really feel that now is the time to really go after The Powers That Be with a
full page ad.  We need your contributions, of whatever amount, to make the ad
a reality.  If just 200 FK fans would contribute $5.00 each, we would have
enough.  PLEASE HELP US DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO GET FOREVER KNIGHT BACK TO
THE FANS!  If Lexx fans can raise $3,700.00, there's *no reason* why we can't
raise $2,695.00!  To contribute via credit card, please click the PayPal icon
on the KtK website which is at http://www.ktk.op.nu or
http://members.aol.com/ktkpage
OR to contribute via Cashier's Check or Money Order (no personal checks
please), please make the CC or MO payable to HOLLYWOOD REPORTER (please *do
not* make them payable to KtK) and mail it to:  Kickstart the Knight, P.O.
Box 1914, Racine, WI 53401-1914.  We want to help *you* make more FK a
reality!!!!

Thank you for your continued support!   Please feel free to forward this
message to anyone who you think may want to help!

Becky -- DFKS, DK, IB, DT, UF, Ravenette, Cousin, FOD
http://members.aol.com/BJDFKFan, http://members.aol.com/DKfanfic
We're cut adrift, but still floating.  I'm only hanging on to watch you go
down...my love.  (Bono, U2)
The world was bankrupted of ten million fine actions the night she passed on.
(paraphrased from Ray Bradbury's F. 451, in memory of Libby M.)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:01:50 -0700
From:    KYER <KYER@p.......>
Subject: CN Tower

Oh, wow!
(Kyer curses the fact that her family dislikes to travel but by automobile,
because having seen the CN Tower's website---she wants to go!  And she
can't.  Arrgh!)

Okay, tell me again where Ger would have been filmed at?  That Sky Pod
thingee? (darn it---they don't show a picture from there!  But there is a
pic of the entire structure.)
http://www.cntower.ca/

:)=
Kyer, kyer@p.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:16:58 -0700
From:    Night Angel <n9qqq@j.......>
Subject: Trophy Girl Question

Okay folks,

Quick question: What was the name of the guy who tried to kill Tracy in
Trophy girl?

Thanks!
NightAngel

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:07:21 -0500
From:    Emma Lighton <elighton@b.......>
Subject: Re: [[FORKNI-L] FK: The Lost Episode?]

Emily wrote:

>Maybe they were talking about the first season ep where Schanke sees Nick

Nope, it was right at the end of their description of the second season.

I don't recall Schanke getting evidence at any point that Nick was
"benign," though. Unless it was along the lines of, "He hasn't ripped open
my throat and drained my blood, so he probably isn't dangerous."

Emma (elighton@b.......)
Vaquera * DPheretic * T+Vpack * FKMac-er Head Mouse Clicker
Survivor of Wars 9 and 10
"Pulvis et umbra sumus." -Horace
https://members.tripod.com/~lostshadows/main.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:34:44 -0400
From:    Marg Yamanaka <mytoronto@h.......>
Subject: Maybe Cow Blood wasn't so bad after all

I was LOL when I read this on a news ML today. This probably
explains why Nick drank cow. <g>

"

          HUMANS AND COWS SURPRISINGLY CLOSE

Apes are the closest human relatives, but cows may not be far
behind. After compiling a rough map (but not the completed
sequence) of cow genes, University of Illinois researchers
say that bovines bear a surprising resemblance to humans.
"The extent of similarity is overwhelming, shocking in some
respects," Harris Lewin of the university's Keck Center for
Comparative and Functional Genomics, told UPI. "Very big
regions seem to be organized identically." The results could
be used to identify superior disease-resistance genes, which
could be cloned in to cattle to lessen the reliance on
antibiotics in cattle production. "That's a very 'green'
thing to do," says Lewin. It might also be useful as a
comparison map to help pinpoint the locations of genes in
humans. "Genes that affect lactation will likely be one of
them.'' The protein content of cow's milk could be important
to human milk, too. The map is a tool to identify candidate
genes for common traits in the two species."

By JIM KLING (UPI) Copyright 2000 by United Press
International and Heavy Sci. All rights reserved."

--
Marg, in Toronto, the City of the Knight  <mytoronto@h.......>
Please visit the Upper Canada Connection -
A Canadian Tribute to Geraint Wyn Davies:
http://members.home.net/gwducc/index.htm

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:49:28 GMT
From:    Gwenn Musicante <gwennm@h.......>
Subject: A Moral LaCroix?

Each time I watch "Ashes to Ashes," I am left with the feeling that LaCroix
overreacted to Divia's request that they be lovers.  Think about it.
LaCroix has tortured, abused, and killed mortals, but the mere suggestion
that he have an incestuous relationship has him in such a rage that he
slices her head off.  Now, I'm not an expert on morality, but isn't multiple
murder a little worse than incest?  And aren't vampires incestuous by
nature?  Once Divia had bitten LaCroix, they were both vampires, there did
not exist the capacity to be judging themselves by mortal values. Their
relationship would be no more incestuous than Nick and Janette being brother
and sister, and I never saw LaCroix trying to break that up.  Now Divia
should have been destroyed( a very evil child), but why was that the straw
that broke the camel's back?  I can't believe that LaCroix felt that this
crime of hers was beyond all redemption.  He overreacted don't you think?

                                             Gwenn

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:01:53 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: A Moral LaCroix?

In a message dated Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:50:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Gwenn
Musicante <gwennm@h.......> writes:

<< I can't believe that LaCroix felt that this
crime of hers was beyond all redemption.  He overreacted don't you think?>>

LaCroix lived as a mortal in very different times than we do now. As a
general and as a vampire, he probably did (does?) not see himself as a
"murderer," at least not in the same since we would.

If I recall correctly, the Romans, as do we, did not condone incest between
father and daughter in the least. Incest has different meanings, punishments,
and severity depending on the society. I'm sure there's some society where it
IS considered worse than murder depending on the culture.

The definition of incest also varies. In some places marrying an in-law is
considered incest even though there is no blood relation. In other cultures
and times, marrying a first cousin (or even a sibling in certain
circumstances) is encouraged.

Where as Nick and Janette are siblings in the vampire sense, they are NOT in
the mortal sense. Divia and LaCroix may have been vampires, but they were aso
daughter and father in the mortal sense. LaCroix was not very old at the time
he took care of Divia (or thought he had). The fact she was trying to seduce
him may very well, in my opinion, been the fang that broke the armadillo's
skin. We also don't know what else had transpired before that. It could have
been something that had been eating at him for a very long time.

LaCroix sees himself as evil, in my opinion, but he also has his moments (as
do we all) that shows otherwise (his love for Fleur, for example).

--Libs (glad to see those anthropology courses coming in handy!)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:17:33 -0500
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: A Moral LaCroix?

> Gwenn Musicante wrote:

> Each time I watch "Ashes to Ashes," I am left with the feeling that LaCroix
> overreacted to Divia's request that they be lovers.  Think about it.
> LaCroix has tortured, abused, and killed mortals, but the mere suggestion
> that he have an incestuous relationship has him in such a rage that he
> slices her head off.

Incest is a taboo that exists in many cultures, so much so that it is plain that
people understood the perils of inbreeding. Marrying within the family eventually
results in weak, defective offspring, and thus endangers the family's longterm
survival. Killing others is different -- they're not related by blood, so their
life or death doesn't mean that much. I'm not sure about Roman attitudes towards
incest, but I seem to remember it was a big no-no. Of course it existed (as it
does in many cultures) but I think it wsa considered wrong and perverted.

> Now, I'm not an expert on morality, but isn't multiple
> murder a little worse than incest?

Not necessarily. Casual killing of a stranger? (shrug) Incest? (gasp of horror).
Roman morals might have rated the two crimes that way.

> And aren't vampires incestuous by
> nature?  Once Divia had bitten LaCroix, they were both vampires, there did
> not exist the capacity to be judging themselves by mortal values.

That's what Divia said, but Lacroix was relatively young, and might have been
still operating under his mortal code of ethics. He certainly had the capacity
to judge his own behavior accordingly. Divia, on the other hand, was reputed to
have been evil from birth, and so was more so as a vampire. The incest was just
another indication of that evil.

> relationship would be no more incestuous than Nick and Janette being brother
> and sister, and I never saw LaCroix trying to break that up.

But Nick and Janette weren't *mortal* relations, only vampire relations. Quite a
different thing. It certainly would make a difference to Nick. I can't see him
having sex with Fleur, if she had been brought across.

> Now Divia
> should have been destroyed( a very evil child), but why was that the straw
> that broke the camel's back?  I can't believe that LaCroix felt that this
> crime of hers was beyond all redemption.  He overreacted don't you think?

Nope, I don't think so.

Mary? McLisa? Any insight into Roman views on incest?

Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:56:54 -0800
From:    Muldy Sculler <ffbmh@a.......>
Subject: Re: A Moral LaCroix?

No, LaCroix did not overreact.  LaCroix was reacting to more than the
suggestion of incest; he was reacting to the sense of pure evil he
received from Diva.  In part he expressed his distaste for her desire, but
I believe that he was reacting to being awash in a sudden wave of evil.

Oh, BTW, do any of the Brit  members of the list know of a
"yorkie" (some sort of food item)?

Thank you,
Barbara

I can't stand this indecision married with a lack of vision.
                                                             Tears for Fears

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:06:50 EDT
From:    teri delong <darius4evr@h.......>
Subject: Re: Trophy Girl Question

From: Night Angel <n9qqq@j.......>

>Quick question: What was the name of the guy who tried to kill Tracy in
>Trophy girl?

That particular psycho was Efram Sedrick.

~Teri~

Check him out!... http://www.benbassfanclub.com/
Proud Vaquera/ Vachon's vassal/ Defender of Brown-eyed Vamps
V-loop/Vaqdreams/T+V/BenBassfanclub/B&C/DP/Fanatic Listmom #2

http://www.geocities.com/darius4evr/4everknightfanatics.html

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:31:59 +0100
From:    Jackie Brown <jaxuk1996@h.......>
Subject: Re: A Moral LaCroix?

For all your educational benefit.....

A Yorkie is a candy bar.  Comes in different varieties, but it's kind of a
generic chocolate-and-nuts-of-some-description candy bar.

Jackie
--British only by marriage ;)

----- Original Message -----
From: Muldy Sculler <ffbmh@a.......>

> Oh, BTW, do any of the Brit  members of the list know of a
> "yorkie" (some sort of food item)?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:14:24 GMT
From:    Gwenn Musicante <gwennm@h.......>
Subject: Re: A Moral LaCroix?

<operating under his mortal code of ethics. He certainly had the
<capacity to judge his own behavior accordingly

  What code of ethics?  Are we watching the same series?  If her suggestion
was so horrible to him, then this would be the only morality that he ever
displayed.  Divia's existence was a result of his lack of morality.  If it
was't then why was she not be acknowledged? ("How is your daughter?")  A
code of ethics?  Isn't that something that LaCroix would try to beat out of
Nicholas?  Am I seeing a double set of standards, one for himself and one
for Nick?

I really understand that the times were different, and maybe somehow
countless murders and brutality solely for the pleasure was not as bad as
incest, but all this was coming from a man/vampire who had no morality-
except for this?

                         Gwenn

Sorry about all this, but I'm really trying to finally understand this
episode.  Just seems too out of character to me.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:39:45 EDT
From:    Libratsie@a.......
Subject: Re: A Moral LaCroix?

In a message dated Fri, 27 Oct 2000  2:21:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Gwenn
Musicante <gwennm@h.......> writes:

<<  What code of ethics?  Are we watching the same series? >>
Everyone's interpretation of the series is different.

<<If it
was't then why was she not be acknowledged? ("How is your daughter?")>>
Because, at the time, under Roman society and law, there were reasons he
could NOT acknowledge her. I've forgotten the exact explanation, but I'm sure
someone will jump in with it <g> Roman society may seem complicated and
confusing to us, but it was another time and another place. Just as different
cultures today have different rules, laws, taboos, etc., so do different
periods in history.  I think he loved Divia as his child, or he wouldn't have
asked about her, but he could not publically acknowledge her as his child.

<<A
code of ethics?  Isn't that something that LaCroix would try to beat out of
Nicholas?  Am I seeing a double set of standards, one for himself and one
for Nick?>>
In a way, perhaps, though I don't understand what you mean by double
standards. But LaCroix is the vampire master/father, and Nick the
creation/son. I've heard more than one parent say to his or her child, "Do as
I say, not as I do." The parent may, for example, say, "Don't stay up too
late" while the parent stays up all night.

<<I really understand that the times were different, and maybe somehow
countless murders and brutality solely for the pleasure>>
I may be wrong, but I don't recall LaCroix ever killing "solely for the
pleasure." He was feeding, getting revenge, etc. Well, there was the case of
a "look, he looks like my father" torture scene, but I think that was an
"issue" with LaCroix's psychological makeup - or he was trying to toughen or
scare Nick.

 <<was not as bad as
incest, but all this was coming from a man/vampire who had no morality-
except for this?>>
Morality? LaCroix has his own morality, based partially on the society he
existed in as a mortal. That's why I cringe everytime I hear the term "moral
values." Whose morals? I hear that as an excuse to bash gay people, for
example, which naturally is totally against MY moral values. Morality is in
the eyes of the beholder.

LaCroix obviously had the morality to love his daughter, even if he COULD NOT
acknowledge her while a mortal, or he wouldn't have been concerned with her
health.  He can love (Fleur) which is a moral emotion, I would think.  He had
the morality to become very protective to the point of rage when "his people"
were dying in FEVER (if I recall correctly, he didn't realize he hadn't
"cured" himself through shear willpower until Natalie figured out the key to
the cure).

Can anyone else think of examples?

This is kind of fun!

--Libs

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:47:30 -0500
From:    Nancy Kaminski <nancykam@m.......>
Subject: Re: A Moral LaCroix?

> Gwenn Musicante wrote:

>   What code of ethics?  Are we watching the same series?  If her suggestion
> was so horrible to him, then this would be the only morality that he ever
> displayed.  Divia's existence was a result of his lack of morality.  If it
> was't then why was she not be acknowledged? ("How is your daughter?")

Yes, Lacroix has a code of ethics -- it's simply different from your own. The
issues of illegitimacy in Roman society were different than today. He may have
loved her (and I think that is evident in AMPH) but he was unable to acknowledge
her for social/political reasons. It was no shame for men to sleep with prostitutes
in those days.

There are societies that consider it ethical to expose weak, elderly members of
the community so they die of exposure when it is deemed they can no longer
contribute and their life is essentially over. We would find this pretty horrid,
but they don't. Samurai warriors believed it was noble and indeed, necessary, to
commit suicide if they dishonor themselves or their lord. We don't. Viva la
difference.

> code of ethics?  Isn't that something that LaCroix would try to beat out of
> Nicholas?  Am I seeing a double set of standards, one for himself and one
> for Nick?

Not really. He was trying to make Nick adhere to his own code of ethics, which
at that time were the vampire's code (protect your own, view mortals as lesser
beings). Nick, on the other hand, was adhering (mostly) to his human code of
ethics, that viewed humanity as worthy of life and indeed, better creatures than
vampires, who are inherently evil because of their very nature.

> I really understand that the times were different, and maybe somehow
> countless murders and brutality solely for the pleasure was not as bad as
> incest, but all this was coming from a man/vampire who had no morality-
> except for this?

The problem, of course, is that Lacroix didn't consider the killing of humans as
murder. He did it for food, or to further some other end that would benefit himself
or vampires in general. As Libbie pointed out, the torture of the daddy-lookalike
was rather an exception --- or perhaps he was merely toying with dinner. <g> You'll
note that Lacroix was very upset at Divia having killed her master -- *that* to him
was immoral, because not only was he her vampire father, and "deserving of respect,"
but a vampire, one of their own, and not a man.

So in his eyes, Divia was not only trying to have an incestuous relationship
with her mortal father, she was a patricide, a very, very serious crime in Roman
society. A double whammy as far as Lacroix was concerned.

Nancy Kaminski
nancykam@m.......

------------------------------

End of FORKNI-L Digest - 26 Oct 2000 to 27 Oct 2000 (#2000-332)
***************************************************************


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