Home Page How I Found Forever Knight Forkni-L Archives Main Page Forkni-L Earlier Years
My Forever Knight Fanfiction Links E-Mail Me

FORKNI-L

Logfile LOG9606D Part 20

June 26, 1996

File: "FORKNI-L LOG9606D" Part 20

	TOPICS:
	Languages Nick speaks (Was Re: YKYB...)
	Bricks
	Vegetable vampires?  (3)
	FORKNI-L Digest - 18 Jun 1996 to 19 Jun 1996 - Special issue  (2)
	Vegetable Vampire
	SPOILER: LK (Tracy)
	Lyrics-Thanks
	Musicals
	Greyhounds
	Holy water
	"Second-string" episodes  (2)
	Blackwing: Did they?
	Me Again-HELP!
	SPOILER:  FEVER; drinking beverages
	CD review suggestion, zine information question
	Why kangaroos?
	FK Charity Totals
	FK on www. Did you know . . .?
	YKYB...or you're just very tired!
	(SPOILERS: HF, FI, LK) My Nick (long)
	Nick and Nat; romanticism
	Help in retrieving story parts
	No Mail

=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:32:12 -0700
From:         Elizabeth Ann Lewis <lizbet@p.......>
Subject:      Languages Nick speaks (Was Re: YKYB...)

At 7:31 AM 6/26/96, Dvixen Vidi Vici wrote:
>On another note:
>Is there any established list of languages that Nick speaks?
>English, French, German (which eps)  Chinese (which dialect, which eps)

Spanish (SoB), and what language was he speaking to the child in Dark
Night?  Probably Vietnamese as well (Can't Run, Can't Hide).

>I'd also be inclined to inculde Gaelic, since in Queen of Harps, I doubt
>they would be speaking English.

Small quibble, it would have been Welsh, not Gaelic.  Welsh and Gaelic
belong to two different branches of the Celtic language group.  And a
well-born Welshwoman of about 1220 would probably know how to speak French.

Lizbet  ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~  Proud Member of the Mercenary Guild
lizbet@p....... ~~ Lizbetann@a....... ~~ Ravenette of the New Order ~
Cleopatra ~ Knightie/NatPacker/N&NPacker with Cousinly tendencies and the
faintest of leanings toward Vanquera-ism ~~ Arnyd yw Ewyll hyd yw ~~
Listowner, Middle Ages Life ~~ http://members.aol.com/Lizbetann/mypage.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:57:16 -0700
From:         "Nina A. Smith" <snsa@i.......>
Subject:      Bricks

Nick is labeled "a brick" here and there, generally with the implication
that he acts as dumb as one sometimes, a brick being thick and dense and so
on ... But after a childhood partly spent with some notable old British
books for children (Edith Nesbit, anyone?), I recall another meaning for the
term. Apparently, to call someone "a brick" in the early part of this
century could be a way of calling him not thick, but SOLID -- a good, loyal
friend to be counted on. Anyone else like this?

nina
****
"Hillel said: Be of the students of Aaron; love peace and pursue peace..."
Pirke Avot 1:12
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:57:21 -0700
From:         "Nina A. Smith" <snsa@i.......>
Subject:      Vegetable vampires?

>Now on a side note... how many of you are old enough to remember the
>Vegetable Vampire?  If you do recall this, can you name the actor who
>played the role?  If you can remember post it and if you are correct,
>you will have my undying respect.  (Yeah, like that really means a lot!).

Uh ... you mean Vincent the Vegetable Vampire from "The Electric Company,"
played by Morgan Freeman? (My goodness, I AM getting on in years.) Those of
you who have or are small kids might also recall the notorious vampire
rabbit Bunnicula.

Don't even ask.

nina
****
"Hillel said: Be of the students of Aaron; love peace and pursue peace..."
Pirke Avot 1:12
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:40:18 +0200
From:         katrinka <STUKENDALCA@m.......>
Subject:      Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 18 Jun 1996 to 19 Jun 1996 - Special issue

well, i had to say some thing about the rememgtion steele thing.
laura and remy didn't do it actually until the very last shot, even then,
all you saw was steele taking laura up the steps.
but the marrage bit, where they didn't consumante the relationship was
frustrating, and brosnons po'd ness was shown on screen.
i'm afraid that will happen to fk if it comes back.
steele was a good show, then they changed in in the last season. and they
characters weren't reconizable. mr clean cut steele studdenly became
sleezy. and i hated that, i really did.
i'm afraid that if they bring fk back, we won't be able to recognize our
beloved nick.
i looked at hte save mst3k site, it said victory is ours.
wouldn't that be nice if it happened to us too?
stranger things have happened!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:43:08 +0200
From:         katrinka <STUKENDALCA@m.......>
Subject:      Re: FORKNI-L Digest - 18 Jun 1996 to 19 Jun 1996 - Special issue

what's the deal, today's the 26th and i just got this!!!!!!!!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:13:52 -0400
From:         "Margaret L. Carter" <MLCVamp@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Vegetable Vampire

There was a Vincent the Vegetable Vampire in a musical spot on The Electric
Company (old public TV show, envisioned as "Sesame Street" for bigger kids).
 But I have no idea who the actor was.  He was a handsome black man vaguely
reminiscent of William Marshall (Blacula).
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:13:51 -0400
From:         "Margaret L. Carter" <MLCVamp@a.......>
Subject:      SPOILER: LK (Tracy)

I finally re-watched LK a couple of days ago.

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
In the shooting scene, I definitely think the bullet that hit Tracy (one of
them, at least) went through Nick's body.  Therefore I could accept her
rising from the grave as a vampire, given some regeneration time.  But what
practical use would she be as a character?  It would be fun to watch Nick
guide her through the vampire life (the Perky Bloodsucker), but her revival
couldn't be explained to the outside world, so she couldn't return as his
partner.  Suppose his blood healed her to the extent that she revived on the
way down to the hospital morgue?  She could be "tainted" like Liam but still
mortal, and her return to life as a working cop would not be impossible -- it
would be seen as a "miraculous recovery" and the report of her death
explained as a lapse in competence on the part of the staff.  Still, I'm not
sure I want to see her death annulled.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:47:50 -0400
From:         Carla Pickering <carla@e.......>
Subject:      Lyrics-Thanks

Thanks everyone who sent the lyrics.  I really appreciate it.
By the way.  I *may* <read: I really shouldn't be doing this> be adopting a
rescued greyhound in August.  Suggestions for names-magical, mystical,
earthcenterd  FK friendly names welcome.....  :-))

Carla at Crowhawwk etc.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:30:38 -0700
From:         "Toni C. Holm" <tch@w.......>
Subject:      Musicals

Diane E. said:
>Just what we needed!  A fun and frivolous thread!
        <snip wonderful "Holiday Inn" casting>
>Can you tell I like musicals? <g>
        I'll bite:
Guys & Dolls
        GWD as Nathan Detroit (Frank Sinatra)
        Nigel as Skye Masterson (Marlon Brando)
        John Kapelos as Nicely-Nicely (Stubby Kaye) (in a checkered vest)
        Catherine Disher as Nathan's perennial fiancee, Miss Adelaide
(Vivian Blaine)
        Deb as Sarah Brown (Jean Simmons) (Looking chic even in a
Salvation Army  uniform -- as did Jean Simmons)

All singing - all dancing!

                -Toni   <tch@w.......>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:23:09 +0500
From:         "J.S.Levin/Stormsinger" <wabbit@e.......>
Subject:      Re: Greyhounds

Carla at Crowhawwk says:
>By the way.  I *may* <read: I really shouldn't be doing this> be adopting a
>rescued greyhound in August.  Suggestions for names-magical, mystical,
>earthcenterd  FK friendly names welcome.....  :-))

Knightwind -- to be "nicknamed" <G> "Windy"?  This has an advantage of being
a gender-neutral name, too.

Or Niknat
Or Crosswind
Or Javlin

I can think of more, if you want ;)

Storm -- wabbit@e....... (J.S.Levin/Stormsinger)
Vaquera, Dark Knightie, UF, SKL; Gangrel, Scrapper
Their canon met my imagination and was outgunned.
If you practice being fictional, you discover that
"characters" are as real as people with bodies and heartbeats...
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:50:16 -0500
From:         Stephanie Babbitt <stephanie.babbitt@g.......>
Subject:      Re: Holy water

Ray H. wrote:
>I can only recall two eps where holy water played a part.  One was Sons
>of Belial, where the priest sprinkles holy water on Nick as part of the
>Exorcism.<snip> The other was the episode with the vampire victim who
>"survived" and became a vampire hunter (Bad Blood?).

In Hunted, the killer "bombs" Nick from above with a jar of holy water. The
jar shatters next to him and presumably splashes him--at least, he flinches
away pretty convincingly. Only after the jar shatters does the killer
explain that it's holy water, so its effect on Nick must be physical and
not psychosomatic.

Stephanie B.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:03:57 -0400
From:         Jean Graham <JeanB7@a.......>
Subject:      Re: "Second-string" episodes

Amy R. <akr@n.......> said:

>"Faithful Followers" is the least of the four, in mho, but I still found a
>lot in it.
      The most beautiful scene in this episode, for me, is the very end,
where Nat so sagely says something to the effect of, "Anyone who tells you
you can have everything you want probably wants everything you have."  And
Nick, with his back to her, is gazing out at the near-dawn and his reply is
no longer referring to the cult, but to himself: "And once you've given them
everything, you're nothing."  At which point he presses the remote and closes
out the sun.  Ouch.

>"Capitol Offense"...  LC promises not to hurt the nun... and goes to
>sleep telling Nick to *trust* him.  Then, of course, he goes and kills the
>woman, and presumes to tell Nick that her friendship was false...
       Definitely one of Lacroix's cruellest moments.  But also very moving:
 Nick's sobbing response to the taunt that her friendship with him was based
on a deception is "So what if it was?"  Ouch again.  You really hated LC in
this one (well, I did).

>I found little in the contemporary plot of "Beyond the Law,"...
> Do you think Nick is the one who told the press?  Or do you think it
> was a member of the Senator's staff?
          From the look on Nick's face, I'd say it was him.  No question.

>"The Code" must be one of the top three Schanke episodes...
          Well, check out who wrote the script.  Could explain why!  :-)   I
liked this one too, tho, precisely because it *did* give us so much more
insight into Schanke's character.  Yeah, the flashback's a bit weak. (Not to
mention unlikely -- where the heck did Nick go to get out of the sun in the
middle of nowhere in the Arizona desert??)  And this isn't the only ep where
we saw Nick & co. partaking of alcoholic beverages without any apparent
problem (well, at least until the poison took effect in "The Code.")  They're
also drinking (ale?) in the "Fever" flashback -- or at least they're
pretending to.  And there are other cases (besides Janette's favorite little
wine mixture) in episodes I can't remember the titles of offhand.
 Interesting, tho.  Don't think I've ever run into vampires who can imbibe
anywhere else.  (It's usually the "I don't drink... wine!" approach.)   But
then, Nick chokes on Nat's single malt in C&C (was that the booze or the
company?) and on the whatever-it-was in 1966.  I suppose this has already
been thoroughly hashed to death on the list, tho...

Well, that certainly went off on a weird tangent...

--Jean Graham (JeanB7@a.......)
          "There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life:
                  music... and cats."   --Albert Sweitzer
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:08:22 -0400
From:         Tammy Stephanie Davis <tsd@u.......>
Subject:      Re: Blackwing: Did they?

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Tammy Stephanie Davis wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Judith Freudenthal wrote:
>
> > Tammy Stephanie Davis wrote that she didnt' think Marian undid any of Nick's
> > shirt buttons.
> >
> > I do have to disagree there.  Several other people seem to think she did.  I
> > believe she did when she was "sensing" him.
>
> No she didn't.  I've seem the scene several times.
>

Oops.  I meant to say that I've *seen* the scene several times.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:54:53 -0400
From:         Lisa Knust <lmknus@m.......>
Subject:      Me Again-HELP!

Hello all!
        Yes, I finally got my hands on another computer.  You've probably
all forgotten me by now, but I used to be a regular "Help!" crier, and
I'm doing it again.
        I've been off-list since the beginning of May or so when I had to
leave school.  I would be VERY grateful if any kind soul would perhaps be
able to update me on what's been going on since then.  I know it's a lot
to ask, but then again, I also know how great you guys are.  :)


Happy to be back (if only for a short time),
Lisa Knust
lmknus@m.......   (don't let the addy fool you, I'm a NYer trapped in
                        RI, Brown to be exact, this time!)
"For the Blood is the Life..."
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 16:07:51 -0400
From:         Allison Percy <percy91@w.......>
Subject:      Re: "Second-string" episodes

Jean Graham <JeanB7@a.......> said about "Faithful Followers":

> Nick, with his back to her, is gazing out at the near-dawn and his reply is
> no longer referring to the cult, but to himself: "And once you've given them
> everything, you're nothing."  At which point he presses the remote and closes
> out the sun.  Ouch.

This is one of those scenes in which many of us just want to give him a
big hug and tell him it'll all be okay.  <sniff>  (Hey, you over there,
rolling your eyes -- quit it!  I *like* Nick when he's pathetic!)

Re: The Code:
> where the heck did Nick go to get out of the sun in the
> middle of nowhere in the Arizona desert??

Maybe he buried himself in the sand, like Vachon and the Inca buried
themselves in the dirt in Black Buddha?  Obviously this is not the
preferred way for a vampire to spend the day, but I'm sure it's better
than going up in smoke. ;^)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Allison Percy, Knightie & Chief Bunny        percy91@w.......
    __o     Pedal for Forever Knight!  Support the charity bike tour!
  _`\<,_    E-mail me to find out how to donate and/or join the ride.
 (*)/ (*)     http://assets.wharton.upenn.edu/~percy91/FKtour.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:57:31 +0500
From:         "J.S.Levin/Stormsinger" <wabbit@e.......>
Subject:      SPOILER:  FEVER; drinking beverages

Jean Graham notes:

>They're also drinking (ale?) in the "Fever" flashback -- or at least they're
>pretending to.
Actually, Jean what I assumed from that scene was that they were in the 17th
century London version of the Raven!!  Especially since Nick goes ahead and
brings the young doctor (I've blanked on his name) across right then and
there with nothing more than Lacroix stepping between them and the door.  So
I assumed that, whatever was in those tankards, blood was at least part of
the mixture.

Storm -- wabbit@e....... (J.S.Levin/Stormsinger)
Vaquera, Dark Knightie, UF, SKL; Gangrel, Scrapper
Their canon met my imagination and was outgunned.
If you practice being fictional, you discover that
"characters" are as real as people with bodies and heartbeats...
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:28:07 -0800
From:         John Soo-Hoo <galahad!jsoohoo@n.......>
Subject:      Re: Vegetable vampires?

>>Now on a side note... how many of you are old enough to remember the
>>Vegetable Vampire?  If you do recall this, can you name the actor who
>>played the role?  If you can remember post it and if you are correct,
>>you will have my undying respect.  (Yeah, like that really means a lot!).

>Uh ... you mean Vincent the Vegetable Vampire from "The Electric Company,"
>played by Morgan Freeman? (My goodness, I AM getting on in years.) Those of
>you who have or are small kids might also recall the notorious vampire
>rabbit Bunnicula.

>Don't even ask.


YES NINA!  You are absolutely correct on all counts!!!  Is the "Electric
Company" still around, I wonder?  For those of you are wondering what
on earth this is all about, I'll explain.

About 20-25 years ago, there was a show dedicated to educating children.
It was a show simliar to Sesame Street only with a bit of more flair and
a touch of Rock Music.  (In fact I think it followed right after Sesame
Street back then)... The only names I can recall in the show are
Morgan Freeman and Rita Moreno ("HEY YOU GUYS!").  One of the shows had a
skit with Morgan Freeman dressed in a Dracula costume singing a
song (if someone can post or email me the words to the song I would be tickled
pink) that basically said who he was (Vincent the Vegetable Vampire) and
it continues him singing the names of various vegetables, with Vincint
walking about in a field of veggies!  At the time I thought it a little
scary, but for some unknown reason that image burned in to my mind.  And as
I grew older I found it funny and immediately recall it everytime I see
Morgan Freeman.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:37:44 EDT
From:         Mary Anne Espenshade <mae@a.......>
Subject:      CD review suggestion, zine information question

Has anyone else suggested reviewing the FK CD to some of the SF sites
out there that do reviews?  I suggested it to SciFi Weekly
(http://www.scifi.com/sfw/).  I'm also going to send email to David
Hirsch at Starlog (DHirsch918@a.......), suggesting it for his monthly
Audiolog column.  If enough of us wrote in, maybe that would generate
some more general publicity.

Zines question - has anyone gotten any of the many FK zines put out by
Tracy Essam and the FK Fan Club of Canada?  I've seen an ad for around
20 titles, either available or in production, but I'd like some impressions
from people who've read them before I order any.
--
Mary Anne Espenshade
mae@a.......
"What time is it?  What day is it?  What century is it?"
-- me, after the first Weekend with Ger

ps - Have FUN, all of you headed out to the *second* Weekend!  Wish I was
going too!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:36:48 EDT
From:         Lisa McDavid <D020214@v.......>
Subject:      Why kangaroos?

Most of us know by now that a kangaroo figures in the Blooper Script.

I was just flipping channels, and came across Kraft's Creatures on PBS.
The producer is FK alumnus Richard Borchiver. It's a nature show -- the
episode just happened to be "Kickboxing Kangaroos."

Now, this may be just coincidence, but I wonder. I do wonder ...  Was
this why the kangaroo in the blooper script?

Not, of course, that I have any evidence that would hold up in a
kangaroo court.

Cousin Lisa -- "That will be trouble."
Chief Watcher for Cats, McGregor
Lisa McDavid
mcdavid-lisa@s.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:46:37 EDT
From:         Mary Anne Espenshade <mae@a.......>
Subject:      Re: FK Charity Totals

Leslie Plummer had asked about the other FK charities:
>BTW, any idea on amts raised by the fan clubs?
I just got the latest newsletter from Ger's fan club and the total raised last
year for Children's Hospital was $10,200!   Over $6000 of that was raised at
the first Weekend.  So I hope those of you going out this weekend are taking
plenty of money for the auction!  See if you can top what we did.  :-)
--
Mary Anne Espenshade
mae@a.......
"What time is it?  What day is it?  What century is it?"
-- me, after the first Weekend with Ger
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:01:40 -0700
From:         Marg Rothschild <margr@a.......>
Subject:      Re: Vegetable vampires?

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, John Soo-Hoo wrote:

> YES NINA!  You are absolutely correct on all counts!!!  Is the "Electric
> Company" still around, I wonder?  For those of you are wondering what
> on earth this is all about, I'll explain.

Boy, that brings back memories! <going into flashback mode>

Ooops, excuse me.

Nope, at least it's not shown here, but wish it'd come back. I miss that
show!

Marg Rothschild, Cousin
margr@i.......  or margr@a.......
(sig in process)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:30:50 -0700
From:         Marg Rothschild <margr@a.......>
Subject:      FK on www. Did you know . . .?

I decided to pay visit to the www. today. We have 4 main search engines
in Netscape here at ASU West. Well, I started with the Magellan search
engine and typed in "Forever Knight"

Did you know that there are 21018 FK results?! Has Sony tried this yet?
Obviously not because if they did, then they'd know that we're not just a
mere bunch.

Marg Rothschild, Cousin
margr@i.......  or margr@a.......
(sig in process)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:34:33 +0000
From:         Sandy Martino <martino@m.......>
Subject:      Re: YKYB...or you're just very tired!

 "Lisa J. Patnaude" <KnightKeep@a.......> wrote:
{when} you click on the "What's Hot" button within AOL
> and scroll down the list.  At the very bottom of the list is the title:
>  "Everything about Cows and Then Some"...And you think, so
> this is Nick's new job.
>
 Well, I just read a blurb for SPANISH  lollipops that are currently all the
rage in Hawaii (though I haven't looked for them on Maui).  They come
in a variety of souvenir novelty containers...the most popular one
is...A COW!  Agghhh...  Anyone else seen them?  Should the Hawaii
FKers go shopping?
Sandy Martino      martino@m.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 16:02:05 -0700
From:         Amy R. <akr@n.......>
Subject:      (SPOILERS: HF, FI, LK) My Nick (long)

(This will include spoilers for HF and FI and LK.)

(Spoiler Space provided by this observation:  "The Human Factor" will
finally come out of spoiler-protection next week, during which week I'll
be in California, two states away from my computer.  People from FKSPOILR
may note a certain irony in my not being here for the next round of HF.
Some may even breathe a sigh of relief.  My opinions on the ep may have
changed a good deal -- hi, Cynthia -- but that only means there is more to
say, doesn't it? <g>)

Felicia Bollin wrote:
>But: Have we had a scene where Nick turns to Nat and admits fairly plainly,
>that he had a time where he unabashedly *enjoyed* being a vampire?

First, I have to disagree that there was ever a time Nick "unabashedly
enjoyed being a vampire."  Excepting only the flashbacks of "Blood Money"
and "Fallen Idols," I cannot think of a single instance where Nick bit
someone without almost immediate remorse -- and both of those were
followed by remorse in time.  Once Nick saw himself through Andre's eyes,
I doubt he was ever again able to rationalize his "needs" as he did in the
Pit.  Yes, there have been times when the moral dilemma was less fierce,
and yes, there have been times when he was rationalizing at full throttle,
but I believe Nick has *always* been haunted by the impression that what
he was doing was wrong.  He tried to save Liselle (TG); he asked Amalia to
stop coming to him (CL); he had to try to talk to the poacher (Hunted)
where LC or Janette would have simply drained him.  Nick wanted to go back
across that first night, and though he adapted to preserve his sanity, I
think the phrase "unabashedly enjoyed" is too strong for the Nick of *any*
era.

Approaching the question from that view, however, have we ever heard Nick
explicitly tell Nat that for four-hundred years he did not fight what he
was, and in fact embraced it?  No.  Never *explicitly*.  However, I
believe that is due to three things: 1) Nick's intense shame over what he
did and was, 2) Nick's self-absorption -- it simply hasn't occurred to him
that Nat doesn't know, 3) she has been told *implicitly* on any number of
occasions, most blatantly with the lovely example Sharon cited from
Francesca. As we've re-watched GVP recently, I think the speed and
intensity of Nick's addiction, and Nat's correction of his "feeding" to
"killing," also reveal the hold the vampiric existence has had on him, and
her understanding of it.  In short, I have not heard Nick tell her, but I
find it hard to believe she doesn't know.  Nat is too smart for that (and
I'll address the idea of Nick as her "blind spot" in a moment).

>does she _really_ know the depth of his affinity for the vampiric life?

Again, I don't believe "affinity" is the best word for Nick's situation.
If you would like to take Urs as an example, and claim she's never killed,
then I suppose it is possible to set up a hierarchy of "affinities" for
the traditional vampiric existence.  I don't think that's valid, but you
could do it.

I think Nick *is* a vampire, and therefore is fighting the powerful
instincts of a vampire.  But he has been on cow blood for a century, and
killed "only the guilty" for three centuries before that.  I do not
believe Nick's "affinity" is stronger than his will to resist.  (Go watch
some first season episodes... come on... pleeeeease? <g>)

>in order to thrive.  If LaCroix gave up and went away, would this lessen a
>lot of the personal urgency Nick and Nat feel about the cure/each other?

Isn't that question answered by the first season?  The three years (minus
DK 1 & 2) without LC are some of the happiest and most productive of
Nick's life.  There was little romantic attraction between N&N, and no
urgency, but with every second episode, it seemed, Nick became more human,
more mortal.  Then LC came back, and everything in Nick's quest began to
fail.

Is that LC's fault?  Not directly.  Nick is responsible for himself, and I
blame him for his own backsliding, for not overcoming the way LC had
conditioned him to low self-esteem and hopelessness.  Nevertheless, and
even though I like LC and admire what he brings to the show, I agree with
Sandra that it was LC's reappearance which has put the breaks on Nick's
cure -- not to mention his personal growth.

>If it is fraught with danger and uncertainty, where Nat never knows _quite_
>where she stands with Nick because he's running off to some other female,
>is this automatically "better"?

That is phrased very provocatively, and I think you probably know that,
Felicia.  Obviously, if Nick had a commitment to Nat (which, until third
season -- and that's debatable -- he does not) then his behavior would be
inexcusable.  It would be neglectful and even emotionally abusive.

However, I maintain that *from Nick's pov* the Nick and Nat romantic
relationship exists between MBIAV and LK *only*, and in that time period,
excepting while he was possessed by a demon, he never once approached
another woman romantically or sexually.

I'm a big BATB fan -- before I discovered FK, it was the show I loved most
in the history of television.  I don't think a network has produced
anything of that quality since.  And I enjoyed -- very much -- the
distinction BATB proper made between love and sex.  This tension exists in
FK, and is explored in FK, through Nick and Nat.  It is a set of
storylines which the show would lack if there was nothing romantic between
N&N, and the show would be the poorer for it.

I don't believe -- excepting "extraordinary circumstances" -- any mortal
can survive sex with any FK vampire.  I know LC can "sip" from children
without killing them (just LC, mind you: Nick asked "which *one* of you
has been feeding on the children in CRCH) and I know Nick can prolong and
postpone the death of people he feeds on (CL and FI), but Janette is the
single example of a vampire whose partner didn't die at her teeth -- and
her situation was so unusual that *she became mortal*. Janette says she
didn't kill him because his blood "warmed her heart" -- she doesn't know
why, scientifically, Robert survived, but she believes it was his love for
her, as she believes it was the depth of her love for him, and thus the
anguish of his loss, that brought her the rest of the way back across.

In short, no mortal survives sex with an FK vampire without True Love
(and/or the scientific theories -- pregnancy, genetic factor, etc). For
me, this is a powerful part of Nick's story, and it conditions the
acceptable definitions of love and romance on the show. (Yes, I think Nat
would have had a better shot in LK if Nick actually had made love to her
-- Nat does love him, and sex was part of Janette's equation.) There is a
poignancy in the fact that Nick *cannot* love a mortal physically --
anything beyond intellect and emotion would be fatal.

What I'm groping toward here is that Nat knows exactly where she stands
with Nick.  It isn't where she'd like to be standing, and MBIAV and LK are
her two attempts to change the situation, but she is as aware of the
situation as Janette is -- I think both Nat and Janette know a lot more
about what each other feel for Nick, and he for them, than Nick does. The
key, though, is that Nat is *waiting* for Nick.  She is not being
emotionally abused by him, because there is no relationship to abuse.
Nick, in and of himself, is not her blind spot; she knows who and what he
is -- both the vampire from the back of the Raven in FtB, and the "good
man" who "always tries to do the right thing," as she describes him in HF.

It has been three years since Nat's last date, a date which almost
resulted in her being killed.  I think that is a fact which deserves more
attention.

*** Amy, Lady of the Knight  (akr@n.......) ***
 Knightie, Fleur-Booster, Light Cousin, Faithful
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:38:30 -0500
From:         Margie Hammet <treeleaf@i.......>
Subject:      Re: Nick and Nat; romanticism

At 12:05 PM 6/26/96 -0400, Felicia Bollin wrote:

>To all those who might think that Nick and Nat's postulated love is somewhat
>"truer" because it came "harder" .... If it is fraught with danger and
>uncertainty, where Nat never knows _quite_ where she stands with Nick because
>he's running off to some other female, is this automatically "better"?

No, of course it isn't.  I think part of the problem here is we're trying
too hard to identify FK with reality.  FK has metaphors for reality; it
_isn't_ reality.  In FK, Nick is a vampire, and that keeps him away from
Natalie.  As far as "The Fix" is concerned, I think the theme had to do
with someone who wasn't ready for commitment; that's the real-world
connection.  And in the real world, if you're ready for commitment, and
the guy isn't, my advice is to not wait around too long for him to get
ready.  But in the story world of FK, we don't know if Nick would have soon
been ready for commitment if the cure in "The Fix" had worked, once he got over
the initial shock of suddenly being mortal and had time to calm down and
adjust.

But in FK, we also see a relationship that has a lot of comfort and ease
between Nick and Natalie.  We see a friendship that to me _looks_ like it
has the special quality to work as a romantic relationship.  In the story
world, though, Nick is a vampire, so the friendship can't get to the point
of being a romantic relationship.  By "romantic" in this case, I mean a
relationship where the love and the sex are entwined.

In the story world of FK, I can't do better than to say it _looks_ that
way.  I wish I could.  In the real world though, I think successful
romantic relationships are based on similar personalities, similar values,
and both people's commitments to each other.

Like everyone else, my opinion comes from where I've been and what I've
done and from where I am now.  I've been in a lot of places that seemed
really ridiculous when I looked back on them, and I've been in a good place
for the last fifteen or sixteen years.

Margie (treeleaf@i.......)
N&NPacker
Cousin of the Knight
Save FK - http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:49:09 -0500
From:         Robbi Egersdorf <egersdor@m.......>
Subject:      Help in retrieving story parts

Can someone please send me the direction to retrieve story parts from the
listserv.  I have lost so many story parts, what with the crash of my hard
drive.  Thanks

Also,  Maryann Jorgensen asked me to send her part 2,3, and 4 of The Stars
in Ourselves and I keep getting them bounced back at me.  Incidently, I have
had so many requests for these parts, I wonder if the hampsters got hungry
and ate these too.

Robbi
Knightie With Dark Tendencies
Long Live the Knight
egersdor@m.......
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:52:51 -0400
From:         Lillian Feden <feden@m.......>
Subject:      No Mail

Hello,

I'm off to the Weekend with Ger tomorrow, so I'm going no-mail.  I know, I
haven't posted alot lately and I may just stay on no-mail.  I haven't decided.

Ta!

Lillian
feden@m.......                      http://www.mcs.com/~feden
Pragmatic Knightie; IB; MBDtK; PGEB (hormones took over)
Fourth L on the right, contemplating the existence of intelligent
  life in the broadcast executive offices
=========================================================================

Previous digest
Previous
This month's list
This month's list
Next digest
Next






Knight graphics and parchment background created by Melissa Snell and may be found at http://historymedren.about.com/